Protecting your family and property

Rooi Bul 86 wrote: Hi Fillet.

When the Act was revised firing warning shots are prohibited. These have been cases where guys shot their better half or a child who came close without the knowledge of the person handling the fire arm out of curiosity and some were killed. There definitely is a chance of you loosing the fire arm if you are declared incompetent or you fail to demonstrated adequate knowledge of the Act. Also under what section is your fire arm licenced and motivated? Section 13 is self protection. Occaisional sport shooting is section 15 make sure and get back to me.

Under which section the firearm is licensed does not have any effect on this. The act clearly states that any firearm can be used for a lawful purpose. A lawful act of self defense is in fact, lawful.

The act also states that your life or the life of another must be in imminent or on going danger. Under our law it is technicality not lawful to protect property but there is precedent that proves this otherwise.





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Rooi Bul 86 wrote: When the Act was revised firing warning shots are prohibited.

Not directly mentioned in the Act. But an assertion can be made that its no bueno.

It in fact stupid and a waste of ammunition to shoot a warning shot. If something is worth shooting, its worth shooting well.





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Fillet, I'm with Oupa on this one. With firearms being my sport, passion and basically only now communicating with firearm people outside of my professional life I can tell you that its an extremely slippery slope. I would definitely have my lawyer of speed dial as ,unfortunately, reading the facts of this case on face value you were in fact wrong to fire a shot.

By the grace of a higher being nothing would come from this but I would strongly urge you to get further training from a reputable trainer so you know when and how to act in these cases.


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Agree with you Vega.

But remember the police always dig and scratch and make it look like we gun owners are trigger happy and just itching to use it. Many times they use the section under which the fire arm is motivated and licenced in court.

Rooi Bul 86 wrote: Many times they use the section under which the fire arm is motivated and licenced in court.

Which quickly gets dismissed as there is no legal grounds.


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Like I said I am not arguing with you.

grr, I replied but lost my post somehow. I have not been able to get through to the attorney, his phone is off, the only thing I can think is that he is out the country at the moment. Sorry bro, will update you if I get through.

I think Admin is right, they will try pressure me to drop charges as its a waste of their time and court dates. Oupa/Mack is also correct in everything mentioned. Vega thanks for your input on the acts and I will find out new laws etc.

Bastard was released yesterday, Chubb follow up with cops and keep you informed so they called us. On asking one of the senior guys who spoke to us he said that the piece of shit had not mentioned the gun shot or beating to the cops. He will probably run and not pitch for court anyway. Here is hoping he is an illegal as he looked Nigerian to me. Apparently he also kept changing his story as to why he was in my yard, twice, why he had broken windows etc.

As for the detective I will just give him a miss as long as possible, I know the police station number and will keep cars locked in garage and curtains and doors shut - this is SA, file will just get lost eventually.

It just makes me sick that you cannot protect yourself anymore. What do you do, sit inside and cry hoping he does not get in...

what stands big in your favour is that he came back a second time.

so you felt threatened as they were clearly targeting your house and you didn't know why.
you did not shoot him and shot a warning shot only on their second attempt. this clearly shows that you are not trigger happy or else you would have fired more than one shot. you caught him on your property and reacted out of fear.

reminds me of oscars case. only difference is he actually shot someone who was not an intruder.

So what is the best route if you see a criminal trying to invade your home? Surely you can't take the risk of waiting until he puts somebody's life in danger? And you can't take the risk of trying to scare him off as he might be nyaope or tiki with no conscience and attack with full force and you have lost the element of surprise. Also, what pro-active measures should you have in place to best protect your ass from legal proceedings?

Pyroclasm wrote: So what is the best route if you see a criminal trying to invade your home? Surely you can't take the risk of waiting until he puts somebody's life in danger? And you can't take the risk of trying to scare him off as he might be nyaope or tiki with no conscience and attack with full force and you have lost the element of surprise. Also, what pro-active measures should you have in place to best protect your ass from legal proceedings?

Early warning and physical barriers to start off with.

Like I said, if the attack is imminent then its open season. This can mean the perpetrator took out a firearm when on the other side of the window. Unfortunately him standing with a hammer as an example on the other side of a physical barrier is not grounds for engagement.

Understand that here the reasonable man tests applies. And it will be presented in court to its full extent to prove that you acted outside of this premise.

The best is in a situation like this to retreat into a safe space (bed room), get your family in their and lock the door. Phone cops and security. If the barrier is penetrated the again, lay down fire. There luckily is precedent for shooting an unarmed attacker in the home but individual circumstances will apply.

If I can give any firearm owner on here advice. Go to www.gunownerssa.org become a member and use their services in situations like this. They're people and legal minds specializing in firearm laws and rights. They also do a lot in the fight against the stupidity of the legislation we're forced to accept.


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vega5 wrote:

Pyroclasm wrote: So what is the best route if you see a criminal trying to invade your home? Surely you can't take the risk of waiting until he puts somebody's life in danger? And you can't take the risk of trying to scare him off as he might be nyaope or tiki with no conscience and attack with full force and you have lost the element of surprise. Also, what pro-active measures should you have in place to best protect your ass from legal proceedings?

Early warning and physical barriers to start off with.

Like I said, if the attack is imminent then its open season. This can mean the perpetrator took out a firearm when on the other side of the window. Unfortunately him standing with a hammer as an example on the other side of a physical barrier is not grounds for engagement.

Understand that here the reasonable man tests applies. And it will be presented in court to its full extent to prove that you acted outside of this premise.

The best is in a situation like this to retreat into a safe space (bed room), get your family in their and lock the door. Phone cops and security. If the barrier is penetrated the again, lay down fire. There luckily is precedent for shooting an unarmed attacker in the home but individual circumstances will apply.

If I can give any firearm owner on here advice. Go to www.gosa.co.za become a member and use their services in situations like this. They're people and legal minds specializing in firearm laws and rights. They also do a lot in the fight against the stupidity of the legislation we're forced to accept.


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Yup, you are not even allowed to fire if he has a gun and you are behind a security door thats locked, as they will claim you are able to hide in a room, etc.

I only fired from inside as he was basically in my face and I didn't know if he was armed, on all occasions I went outside looking for them. Plus the cheek of them being there the 2nd time kinda pissed me off and I did want to kill him - would have been an easy win. Thank fuck I kept that under control.

Seems like only thing you can do is give a few klaps and still get into trouble, using bats or knives will get you charges of brutality I am sure and being inhumane, probably worse than shooting him as you have to hit or stab several times.

Fillet I had a similar situation end of last year where I found a burglar in my property. I managed to catch him in my garden as he was trying to jump over the wall into the neighbor's propery. I had my kid's softball bat and hit him twice, once as he was trying to jump over the wall and then again when he wouldn't listen to lie down on the ground.

When the cops came to arrest him and take my statement they told me I must not mention hitting him with the bat, because he was unarmed and could lay an assault charge against me for excessive force. You are not allowed to beat the crap out the them unfortunately, but good job for teaching him a lesson. The thing is how the hell are we supposed to know that they don't have a concealed weapon.

Muscleaddict wrote: Fillet I had a similar situation end of last year where I found a burglar in my property. I managed to catch him in my garden as he was trying to jump over the wall into the neighbor's propery. I had my kid's softball bat and hit him twice, once as he was trying to jump over the wall and then again when he wouldn't listen to lie down on the ground.

When the cops came to arrest him and take my statement they told me I must not mention hitting him with the bat, because he was unarmed and could lay an assault charge against me for excessive force. You are not allowed to beat the crap out the them unfortunately, but good job for teaching him a lesson. The thing is how the hell are we supposed to know that they don't have a concealed weapon.

Exactly that MA, you're outside by yourself with two fuckers in the yard and its dark. Yes my gun is pointing straight and ready. It wouldn't be nice for your family to come outside and find you shot 5 times with their illegal firearms. We hesitate to shoot as we know its jail time, they will kill you and disappear. As a youngster my uncle was murdered with a pipe, was in icu for a while then passed on. They never caught him. Two young kids and a wife in the house. Very sad.

When you give your statement make sure you say you caught them trying to break in and not just in your property, so that they are locked up with Pappa for more than a month. The court system is screwed in SA. 6 months later and the fucker who I caught is still awaiting trial after 2 postponements now. At least he is still locked up without bail. Sorry to hear about your uncle.

vega5 wrote:

Pyroclasm wrote: So what is the best route if you see a criminal trying to invade your home? Surely you can't take the risk of waiting until he puts somebody's life in danger? And you can't take the risk of trying to scare him off as he might be nyaope or tiki with no conscience and attack with full force and you have lost the element of surprise. Also, what pro-active measures should you have in place to best protect your ass from legal proceedings?

Early warning and physical barriers to start off with.

Like I said, if the attack is imminent then its open season. This can mean the perpetrator took out a firearm when on the other side of the window. Unfortunately him standing with a hammer as an example on the other side of a physical barrier is not grounds for engagement.

Understand that here the reasonable man tests applies. And it will be presented in court to its full extent to prove that you acted outside of this premise.

The best is in a situation like this to retreat into a safe space (bed room), get your family in their and lock the door. Phone cops and security. If the barrier is penetrated the again, lay down fire. There luckily is precedent for shooting an unarmed attacker in the home but individual circumstances will apply.

If I can give any firearm owner on here advice. Go to www.gosa.co.za become a member and use their services in situations like this. They're people and legal minds specializing in firearm laws and rights. They also do a lot in the fight against the stupidity of the legislation we're forced to accept.


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Thanx Vega it seems you have good experience with this. What about the idea of getting a compressed gas gun, and set it so that it falls under the min muzzle velocity by law to be classified as a lethal weapon? The idea is that you could lay down non-lethal fire immediately upon detection and they will likely be able to escape (with plenty of holes but that's no longer my problem). :evil: That way both parties are protected in the safest manner. The chance is next to zero of killing anybody with a fluke shot, and in all instances severely less than a firearm.

Pyroclasm wrote:

vega5 wrote:

Pyroclasm wrote: So what is the best route if you see a criminal trying to invade your home? Surely you can't take the risk of waiting until he puts somebody's life in danger? And you can't take the risk of trying to scare him off as he might be nyaope or tiki with no conscience and attack with full force and you have lost the element of surprise. Also, what pro-active measures should you have in place to best protect your ass from legal proceedings?

Early warning and physical barriers to start off with.

Like I said, if the attack is imminent then its open season. This can mean the perpetrator took out a firearm when on the other side of the window. Unfortunately him standing with a hammer as an example on the other side of a physical barrier is not grounds for engagement.

Understand that here the reasonable man tests applies. And it will be presented in court to its full extent to prove that you acted outside of this premise.

The best is in a situation like this to retreat into a safe space (bed room), get your family in their and lock the door. Phone cops and security. If the barrier is penetrated the again, lay down fire. There luckily is precedent for shooting an unarmed attacker in the home but individual circumstances will apply.

If I can give any firearm owner on here advice. Go to www.gosa.co.za become a member and use their services in situations like this. They're people and legal minds specializing in firearm laws and rights. They also do a lot in the fight against the stupidity of the legislation we're forced to accept.


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Thanx Vega it seems you have good experience with this. What about the idea of getting a compressed gas gun, and set it so that it falls under the min muzzle velocity by law to be classified as a lethal weapon? The idea is that you could lay down non-lethal fire immediately upon detection and they will likely be able to escape (with plenty of holes but that's no longer my problem). :evil: That way both parties are protected in the safest manner. The chance is next to zero of killing anybody with a fluke shot, and in all instances severely less than a firearm.

Its a horrible idea. The only thing worse than a criminal is a pissed off criminal.

Under the FCA pointing a gas gun is anyway classified the real thing. The FCA is quite explicit on this point. Like I said earlier, if something is worth shooting its worth shooting well. Under the correct circumstances that is.


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admin wrote:

FIllet wrote: Not on the same mail address now though, using my cell.

Please correct your account email address, because every time someone replies to a topic you subscribed to the email bounces.

I'll double check that, it hasn't changed on my laptop so should come through boss. Check it in the morning. Thanks

A bit late to the party, here are some extracts that might answer some questions... that were already answered rather well by Vega and 00pump...

On a serious note, I have a lot of respect for you gents that have families. It takes a lot to be a man of the house. Teacher, counsellor, protector, coach, and doctor (and sometimes chef lol) . Especially in a country as volatile and unpredictable as ours.

Sent from the flight launch deck using semaphore signals.

Pyroclasm wrote: Thanx Vega it seems you have good experience with this. What about the idea of getting a compressed gas gun, and set it so that it falls under the min muzzle velocity by law to be classified as a lethal weapon? The idea is that you could lay down non-lethal fire immediately upon detection and they will likely be able to escape (with plenty of holes but that's no longer my problem). :evil: That way both parties are protected in the safest manner. The chance is next to zero of killing anybody with a fluke shot, and in all instances severely less than a firearm.

Below is the definition according to Firearms Control Act 60/2000. But yeah I know what your point is Pyro. Some places in this country they just go jungle justice, either the PD in the area are lenient or just not present. Very area dependent I think. Have a friend who is a vineyard manager in Stellenbosch. Due to the position of the skwatter camps /townships there is a big problem with pilfering. They would come and steal wood, grapes, fencing etc. So he got a paintball gun (incredibly powerful one though) and filled the hopper with solids. Anyone causing trouble he takes shots at, and this dude is a 60 year old drunk. Police never become involved, unless it is in his favour. Because everyone knows in that area the criminal are just cycling through the correctional system. Prisons are too full and need to be kept occupied with crimnals of a higher degree sentence.

Went way off topic there! My point, if you stay in a large city, assume you'll get in trouble if you take karma to your own hands. That said I still carry a knife on my person and a trench-bat in my car.

Sorry for the derail Fillet!

Sent from the flight launch deck using semaphore signals.

Fuck the law. Come close enough too my family I'll fuck you up bad. Come closer and I'll kill you regardless of consequences. No son of a bitch will ever come in my house, cuff us, rape my wife and put a gun too my kids face. Bastard will die a horrible death. I'm being really sincere here. Come in my house, die. If these pigs shoot you, they need to run due to noise. You just saved your family

Fucken cowardly sneaky bastard bitches
Makes me so angry I'll strangle one to death.
Why? Had this before, Christ it'll never happen again

Furk wrote:

Pyroclasm wrote: Thanx Vega it seems you have good experience with this. What about the idea of getting a compressed gas gun, and set it so that it falls under the min muzzle velocity by law to be classified as a lethal weapon? The idea is that you could lay down non-lethal fire immediately upon detection and they will likely be able to escape (with plenty of holes but that's no longer my problem). :evil: That way both parties are protected in the safest manner. The chance is next to zero of killing anybody with a fluke shot, and in all instances severely less than a firearm.

Below is the definition according to Firearms Control Act 60/2000. But yeah I know what your point is Pyro. Some places in this country they just go jungle justice, either the PD in the area are lenient or just not present. Very area dependent I think. Have a friend who is a vineyard manager in Stellenbosch. Due to the position of the skwatter camps /townships there is a big problem with pilfering. They would come and steal wood, grapes, fencing etc. So he got a paintball gun (incredibly powerful one though) and filled the hopper with solids. Anyone causing trouble he takes shots at, and this dude is a 60 year old drunk. Police never become involved, unless it is in his favour. Because everyone knows in that area the criminal are just cycling through the correctional system. Prisons are too full and need to be kept occupied with crimnals of a higher degree sentence.

Went way off topic there! My point, if you stay in a large city, assume you'll get in trouble if you take karma to your own hands. That said I still carry a knife on my person and a trench-bat in my car.

Sorry for the derail Fillet!

Sent from the flight launch deck using semaphore signals.

Thanx man. Be sure to keep a baseball glove next to your bat, trust me your lawyer will thank you for that. I'm learning quite a lot and the gents make valid points. Just wanna spitball some ideas. If I read your extract correctly, could I use a compressed gas gun with a caliber less than .22mm, and just ensure the output is less than 8J? That way if they argue that the gun could be adjusted to lethal you have the fact that the caliber was smaller anyway, as well as the gun was in fact not over the threshold and used for sport shooting.

@Vega: Joined the forum but I don't see much activity. Also no real advice on this matter or how to go about getting your licence in a clever way.

Pyroclasm wrote: Thanx man. Be sure to keep a baseball glove next to your bat, trust me your lawyer will thank you for that. I'm learning quite a lot and the gents make valid points. Just wanna spitball some ideas. If I read your extract correctly, could I use a compressed gas gun with a caliber less than .22mm, and just ensure the output is less than 8J? That way if they argue that the gun could be adjusted to lethal you have the fact that the caliber was smaller anyway, as well as the gun was in fact not over the threshold and used for sport shooting.

Aye I've heard that before, appreciate the thought mate. This forum seriously needs a thumbs-up emoji. But don't mistake my trench-bat for a baseball bat. Doubt a mitt will defend me :lol:

Regarding your gas gun idea. You are correct. Because of the definition, firing a firearm is automatically lethal force as I understand it. But other means could also qualify as "lethal force". The code also states:
:
Which confuses me, which section takes precedence?

Second question, the gas-gun idea, how effective will that actually be? I've got no clue how relate joules to physical force, so here is a graph
:


So is it worthwhile bothering? I mean I have a "windpuks" and man, sure it can penetrate, I've shot rats and other scavengers off their feet. But stopping power against a person? I'm pretty sure most of us could power through a pellet shot? That's it, I need to conduct my own practical studies. My next day off (look at the tine I'm posting this lol) I'm doing target practice against human-flesh-and-bone-like objects. :woohoo: