Finalising Future Cycle

Hi guys

First off, I apologise for creating a new post on almost the same topic, but I just would like some clarification on some things as I wasn't getting any responses for my last few questions on my previous post.

My proposed cycle is as follows (2nd Injectable Cycle):

Week 1-10: 640mg PGW Supertest (Mon-Thurs split)
Week 1-4: EITHER TBol 40mg ED OR Dbol 40mg ED OR 200mg Test Prop (Mon-Thurs split)
Week 5-7: 250iU Ovidrel EOD for 20 days
Week 1-10: (Arimidex on hand)

Week 11-15: EITHER Winstrol 40mg ED OR Proviron 50mg ED

Week 15: 100mg Clomid ED
Week 16-19: Nolvadex 20mg ED along with Ovidrel (1000iU Day 8, 500iU EOD for 25 days)

Questions:

1) I have been recommended Tbol over Dbol, but the Tbol I can get is quite expensive. Will Tbol really be of greater benefit than Dbol?
2) Could 200mg Test Prop (Mon-Thurs split) be used as a kicker for 5 weeks instead of using an oral compound? Is the Mon-Thurs split fine for Test Prop?
3) Should I buy 4 extra amps of Sust 250 and extend my cycle to 12 weeks, using 2mls of Sust EW for the initial 2 weeks? Or should I leave things at Supertest for 10 weeks only?
4) I would like to maximise gains whilst not using too many compounds at once. Which is better as a bridge starting the day after last pin between Winstrol at 40mg ED and Proviron 50mg ED? I only want to use ONE of the two orals.
5) I am trying to follow Doctari's PCT as strictly as possible, however I can't get a hold of Aromasin. Is there another drug that would be a good substitute for it, or should I rather leave that out of my PCT?

I apologise for the similar post and all the questions. I've been doing quite a lot of research and cannot seem to find any reliable information that clarifies things for me. I appreciate your replies in advance.

That is mostly the cycle i am following now. What do you want from your frontload? Do you want quick strength increase with water bloat and size that would deflate or do you want good strength increase with quality lean gains that is a good base for the test to work on when it starts kicking?

I vote for Tbol bud at 60mg/day
If you have to choose between proviron and winni to round off cycle i vote for winni hands down. Proviron is a nice add on to run during a cycle. It is not a "impact" steroid like winni or tbol or anavar for example
Lots of people get great gains with 10 week cycles. For some reason 12 weeks is just a better option for me
With regards to your PCT. If you opt for doctari's pct you have to follow it to the letter. There is no substitution of anything. I am not aware that there is a exact alternative for aromasin anyway. You probably can get away with one of the more basic pct's in the sample cycle section although doctari's pct is always the best option. I opted for the clomid/nolva/hcg one.

To be honest this is not a very harsh cycle causing major shut down so u don't really need to run ovidrel during the cycle nor do u need to do a full doctari pct as it is a pretty simple test cycle. U can use ovidrel,clomid and kessar as a pct and recover fully,so you can save some $$$ on the additional ovidrel for during the cycle and get your tbol instead of dianabol.you could even instead of using an oral front load run 1ml super test and 1ml prop 2x a week for the full 10 weeks and it will probably cost u less than doing super test and ovidrel with an oral to front load. I would seriously run winstrol and proviron together as a bridge towards pct, there is a synergy between these compounds that really will make a huge difference in those last 4-5 weeks.

HEy bud.

Week 1-10 supertest 640mg weekly is fine
Week 1-4 dbol would be nice (after all you are bulking so skip the tbol, you are going to dry up gains anyway with winstrol)
Week 5-7 Ovidrel ? No need bro.
Week 11-15 Winstrol 50mg ED if you can add proviron @ 25mg ED minimum

PCT clomid,nolva,ovidrel is fine, your not on heavy shit so that will suffice, i you want to add in ovidrel i would add it in with the winstrol.

I would maybe think of doing dbol @ 50mg dailY,but its up to you.

@ABC01: How are you finding it bro? What were your starting stats, what week are you in now, and what are your current stats?

I want solid lean gains so think I will spend the extra $$$ and go with the TBol if I Use an oral kicker. Why such a high dose though? Would 40mg ED not make as great a difference as 60mg ED? Like I said, I want to maximise my gains as much as possible, so will get the winni and the proviron and run them together during my bridge.

Also, if my first cycle of 300mg Test E each week did practically nothing for me, do you think adding two weeks of Sust 500mg/week would be best?

@DJ: Thanks for the insight bro, that's gonna save me quite a lot of $$$ as I was trying to be as safe as possible. If I do use Ovidrel, Clomid and Kessar for my PCT, would the Kessar be run at 20mg ED just like the Nolvadex would?

With the Supertest and Test Prop throughout cycle, is there a particular reason for you not recommending 1.5ml or even 2mls of Supertest with the 2mls of Test Prop each week? The reason I'd prefer 2mls is for the added Test but also because I will use both vials of Supertest as I'm planning on buying 2. As I was saying to ABC01, I really want the most from this cycle and am just worried that 1ml of Supertest each week instead of 2ml won't maximise my results. I don't mind spending the extra cash on buying two vials of each, provided they will be of greater benefit...

Is this too much for a second cycle?:

Week 1-10: 640mg Supertest + 200mg Test Prop each week (Mon-Thurs split)
Week 11-15: 50mg Winni + 50mg Proviron ED

Week 15: 100mg Clomid
Week 16-19: 20mg Kessar ED + 500iU Ovidrel EOD

Please bear in mind I want to grow, and grow BIG time, so that's why I have included such high dosages of Test. When I start, I will probably weigh around 94kg with 12% BF and want to get to 100-105kg... But please let me know if those dosages are simply too high and will only provoke sides such as acne etc. If so then I will run 1ml Supertest with 2mls Test Prop each week.

Thanks a lot for your advice guys, much appreciated!

Mk, how about this:

Week 1-10: Test enanthate 600mg weekly Mondays and thursdays
Week 1-10: Test prop 100mg mondays and thursdays
Week 1-4: Dianabol 50mg ED
Arimidex will sort out most estrogen water problems so dont worry too much about the dbols. Koe007 dropped bodyfat on one of his cycles and really leaned out alo while using dbol as a kicker and you want to gain ALOT so i would go for dbol rather than tbol. Check the first page of koe's thread.
The winstrol and proviron bridge is fine bro.

If you do this you will make solid lean gains imo, although that is mostly up to your diet.

Thanks Gorilla, appreciate your advice man. However, my first cycle was Test E and my gains came really late so that's why I would prefer using Supertest which wil mean a lot more short esters that will see results come quicker, and also so gains can gradually pick up starting earlier in the cycle, than they would with Test E. Maybe test E works with others, but just saying from my experience that I would rather prefer a different Test.

May I ask, why have you chosen Test Enanthate over Supertest? I won't be running the Arimidex on cycle as I have been told on this site that it hampers gains, and would prefer TBol as I would much rather have 3kgs of solid muscle with a strength increase than double that of water retention. Even so, I don't even think an oral frontload would be necessary if I were using 200mg Test Prop each week, but then again I'm just a rookie with all this.

Will definately take a look at his thread, thanks man. And diet will be in check as it always is.

I love the cycle! Mine looks like this:

Week 1-14: Supertest @ 640mg/week (pin once)
Week 1-5: Tbol @ 60mg ed
ending cycle with winni @ 50mg ed for final 6 weeks leading up to pct
running proviron at 60mg ed entire cycle
adex 0.2mg eod

starting stats:
75.3kg with 11.3%bf
5 weeks in today and sitting at 78.8kg with 10% bf

I have to add that DJ is working with me and my aim is more at dropping the bf than putting on mass. Dont know if 40mg Tbol will be fine, i just went with 60mg as that seem to be a popular dosage

You can always get 1 more supertest vial and extend your cycle

Okay the reason i chose enanthate is because its 300mg per ml. Supertest is 320. HOWEVER, if your injecting twice a week you wont take full advantage of all the esters. LEts look at the half-life of the esters in supertest:
* Propionate 40mg 4.5 days
* Phenylpropionate 40mg 3 days
* Isocaproate 40mg 9 days
* Enanthate 100mg 8-10.5 days
* Cypionate 100mg 12 days

So there will only be 120mg kicking in quicker than enanthate bro. Which, imo is not worth it. If you feel like tbol, by all means go for it. But I would rather make my own little combo of enanthate and prop as this will produce some quick gains, but you still have the high nitrogen retentive properties of the enanthate ester.

Oh, and then you wont really need a frontload, but as you said, you want SIZE. So add the tbol, you can maybe lower the dose somewhat. Keep the adex on hand incase gyno flares up. It wont do THAT much to your gains, but only use it if need be.

Cheers

@ABC01: Keep it up bud and thanks for letting me know! Keep us posted on your results.

@Gorilla: Yeah man that's 120mg of Test that also kicks in faster, that I wouldn't otherwise have. Without giving too much away, I can get PGW Supertest for 1/7th more than the PGW Test E price, so in my opinion I'm actually not losing out on all that much bro. But I see what you're saying. Isn't the actual molecular weight of Test E a bit less that the actual weight of it though?

So will probably stick to 2mls of both Supertest and Test Prop for 10 weeks, and will consider the TBol frontload with a definite Winni and Proviron bridge. Hoping to beat that 100kilo mark by the end of it!

I also think the test blend will be better off than Test E by itself in terms of solid gains vs water retentive gains, as the Supertest has those 2 short ester Tests in it. I mean, if I use 2mls of each compound each week, I will be getting 360mg of short esters alone, let alone the 400mg of long esters once they kick in! Will always keep an AI on hand for those estro-related sides.

Thanks for your input bro!

So you will be running 840mg of test/week then? That is quite a senior dosage. It is a good combination however. With that dosage i would seriously consider running a low dosage of adex. But that is just me, maybe you are not gyno prone at all.

What is your current stats?

Ya some guys on this forum helped me out a lot to decide what to run and when, and I spoke to a friend tonight and he suggested this, which incorporates everything I have mentioned which he feels will maximise my results:

Week 1-10: 640mg Supertest (Mon-Thurs split)
Week 1-3: 50mg Dbol ED
Week 3-10: 25mg Proviron ED
Week 4-10: 150mg Test Prop EW (Mon-Thurs split)

Week 11-14(Bridge): 40mg Winstrol ED

PCT
Week 15: 100mg Clomid ED
Week 16-19: 20mg Kessar ED + 500iU Ovidrel EOD

Therefore on cycle, the relatively highly dosed DBol will help me pick up strength quickly, although that will come with a bit of bloat. However, I will only be running the Dbol for 3 weeks so water retention won't be as great as say 5 weeks (I might swap the DBol for 50mg TBol ED to minimise bloat and to further my lean mass gains).

Also, the idea of running a relatively low dose of Proviron on cycle is to:
a) Maximise the Tesosterone used as "Proviron’s ability to connect so strongly to SHBG will free up other steroids in your stack to allow them to exercise more activity" according to this site
b) Decrease the (possible) bloat I will get from the DBol, provided I use it instead of TBol, and to help with providing much leaner gains
c) Function as a mild anti-estrogen, to prevent gyno amongst other estrogen related sides.

I want to maximise the results I get from this cycle as much as possible, which is why I will be using 150mg Test Prop with the Supertest from Week 4 onwards. So from Week 4-10 I will be using just under 800mg of Testosterone each week. Don't know if this is too much or not though, so I might decrease the Test Prop to 80mg each week, as I have had acne before and REALLY don't want to go down that road ever again.

Then with 40mg Winni ED during my bridge, it will help harden me up, lean me out slightly and perhaps even help with an additional kg or two of lean mass.

My PCT was recommended by DJ so I'm sticking to it as it is.

My current stats are 5'11, 94kg and 12% BF but that might be different when I start this cycle, around July or early August. My goals are to drop a bit of BF, hopefully get down to 10-11% BF whilst getting to 100kg or more with a great increase in strength. Hope things work out!

Yeah bro thats a good plan. Have you considered pinning supertest on mondays an thursdays then prop on wednesdays and saturdays? Then you are going to maximize the prop esters as the need to be pinned EOD or E3D.

IMO you will make the 100kg mark if your 94 now. Use the dbols man! T\If you get water you will have more than enought time to harden it up.

Goodluck bro and post your results when you start.

i would keep the prop with the super test,it will kill the supertest kick.. by pinning on wednesdays and saturdays u might as will pin 1/2ml prop,1/2ml super test 4x a week which will turn you into a pin cushion.

I hope so hey, been wanting this for a long time! I haven't considered that as I'm trying to minimise pinning, but will definately consider that as I get closer to the time. Still a few months before I will actually start the cycle. Am I right in saying that Test Prop and Supertest cannot be mixed in the same syringe? Or is Test Prop also oil-based?

Thanks man, I'm really hoping to pick up some decent size next time around. Yeah what you're saying with the Dbol seems to make sense, however the TBol would provide proper lean gains and strength, but I would probably only end up gaining strength from the Dbol.

Thanks man, will do. Same goes to you for your upcoming Cyp cycle.

@DJ: What do you mean by killing the Supertest kick? Are you referring to gorilla's suggestion? I am hoping to minimise pinning by mixing the Supertest and Test Prop in the same syringe, however I'm not 100% sure that I can do that. Is it possible, or is Test Prop water-based?

Otherwise what do you think of the rest of the cycle?

Keep it simple. Decide on a cycle and stick to it. You can mix prop and supertest. They are all oil based. Test suspension is water based. Good luck bud! That 100kg mark is very realistic

Will do bud, thanks. And thanks for confirming that for me. Like I said, I will only be running this cycle in July-August, so whilst I have time I just want to find out as much as I can so that I will maximise my gains. Not trying to change up much more though. Will be dieting hard so I hope I will eventually get there!

MK wrote: @DJ: What do you mean by killing the Supertest kick? Are you referring to gorilla's suggestion? I am hoping to minimise pinning by mixing the Supertest and Test Prop in the same syringe, however I'm not 100% sure that I can do that. Is it possible, or is Test Prop water-based?

Otherwise what do you think of the rest of the cycle?

because supertest is so high dose it can leave a bit of injection pain the next day from the high doses,so by mixing it with the pgw test prop it will minimize injection pain, yes you can mix the 2 together no problems.

@DJ: Alright thanks a ton bro, will keep it simple and am glad that minimising pinning is also going to help minimise the pain.

cool bro, happy growing...

Oh and MK try and add some vitamin c from week 6, at 2000-4000mg daily, it takes about 6 weeks for cortisol levels to start raising and vitamin c helps suppress it. I would also run creatine on cycle and every now and then take some ibuprofen or aspirin pre-workout, anti inflammatories helps with cortisol.

And i would really consider adding in flaxseed oil as a healthy fat and some omega's. The flax can even help lower estrogen.

Hope you get huge bro.

Yeah man, I've already read up on its effects. I already take 2000mg daily so will continue that throughout the cycle as well. But appreciate you telling me bud!

Don't think I'm gonna even touch creatine on cycle as it only makes me blow up the shrink as soon as I stop taking it. Also only heard bad things about aspirin with exercise, howcome you're recommending it?

Appreciate it bro!

Aspirin is an anticoagulant or "blood thinner" which means that it prevents clotting of the blood. Testosterone dramatically increases red blood cell synthesis which at high test doses can lead to an increased risk of blood clots. One baby aspirin per day should normalise that so it's generally recommended.

i would rather cut down on training to 4 days a week before adding in anti inflammatories to your cycle gorilla, anti inflams actually make you retain water so this isnt a good thing, 9000mg of omega3's a day would be a better thing to bring down cortisol levels. likei i said u dont need to do this if you are eating enough and resting enough to reduce cortisol.