Advice Please: NPP + Test 2nd Cycle

Thanks ABC, and that goes according to my proposed start of the Supertest cycle which I will be starting in August.

I will definitely consider throwing in a T-Bol frontload for a few weeks at the start of the cycle, but at those dosages I'm not so sure I will do it as I can only get my hands on Turanaplex which is pretty expensive and comes in 50x10mgs... But might add the Winni and MAYBE Schering (Paki) Proviron at the end of the cycle and bridge provided it won't be too unreasonably expensive to run the Winni itself.

Yes, it is a very basic PCT structure, but I don't feel like I need much more than that, as I also took 500iU HCG each week on cycle so I wasn't affected at all downstairs... Can't wait to start in August though! And my PCT will be A LOT better then.

MK, doing a proper PCT is as important as planning your cycle - if not more so.

Read everything here: www.anabolicsteroids.co.za/articles/information

ABC01 boet, HCG should not be taken during PCT. It is better to take low doses during your cycle so you don't mess with your natural LH production during PCT.

Yes, HCG mimics luteinising hormone and stimulates testosterone production in the testes. But, because of it's similarity to luteinising hormone, as long as there is HCG in your bloodstream you will inhibit your body's natural production of luteinising hormone and delay your recovery.

Mucleaddict, this flies in the face of everything I've read regarding PCT. Even Doctari's PCT contains HCG.

Eidolon wrote: Mucleaddict, this flies in the face of everything I've read regarding PCT. Even Doctari's PCT contains HCG.

Yes, Doctari's PCT includes ovidrel and can be substituted for HCG. But that's the only change that should be made to his PCT. If you are going to follow Doctari's PCT then it should to followed 100% to the T. It works and I will definitely not knock it.

Doctari's PCT clearly works, but HCG has been shown in studies to suppress natural production of LH. HCG works by mimicking LH which causes your testes to produce testosterone. As long as HCG is in your bloodstream, then your pituitary gland will not produce your own LH and this can delay recovery.

The PCT protocol respected by experienced thousands of AAS users on most popular AAS/bodybuilding over the last decade has been one by Dr. John Crisler, (known as Swale on some steroid forums) who is a endocrinologist who specialises in HRT. He has spent many years working with hundreds of AAS users. He is one of the most respected endocrinologists and HRT specialists in the world and he does not recommend HCG during PCT for that reason. Just google him.

I am no MD so can only speak from my experience as an aas user and what I have read over the years, but besides the countless posts on other forums that I have read I have used his PCT or very similar for many cycles since around 2005 and my bloodwork has come back good post cycle.

Other clinical studies have shown the same thing with HCG suppressing natural LH production. On cycle this does not matter because LH is not needed. I can post links if I may.

I am keen to hear of any other evidence behind this as I'm also only to learn more

Ovidrel is HCG, only better :lol:

It's interesting that the PCT protocols on this site rely on HCG for more suppressive cycles, but I also agree that the impact of the HCG might be masked by the other compounds. It would be awesome to get Doctari's opinion.

@ Muscleaddict: Thanks for the info boet! Would be interesting to hear the views of the old hands like Jackrabbit/admin/DJ/Tiny/pump ect on this..............

@Eidolon: Yes, I am aware of the importance of having a correct PCT in place, so will try get my hands on some Clomid for the first week of PCT followed by 4 weeks of Nolva at 40/40/20/20.

To both Mucleaddict and Eidolon: Regarding my next cycle (640mg/week of Supertest for 10 weeks), what would you guys recommend to be the 'best' way of using a PCT along with LH stimulation throughout my cycle?

For example, would it be best to run one shot of 250iU each week throughout my cycle, or should I only use the '20 day blast' of 250iU EOD starting mid-cycle? What would you guys recommend between HCG and Ovidrel(I can choose from both)? Or would you recommend HCG for the on-cycle use and the Ovidrel throughout my PCT? What I'm trying to say is that next time I run a cycle, I want to do it 100%, so I'm willing to pay extra to ensure I reap the maximum benefit of the cycle.

At the moment, I'm still planning on this for the cycle(it will be my 2nd):

Week 1-10: 640mg Supertest each week (Monday-Thursday split)
Week 5-7: 250iU *HCG/Pregnyl or Ovidrel?* EOD for 20 days
Week 10-14(Bridge): 40-50mg Winstrol ED (Milk Thistle will be taken)
*Will keep Liquidex(Arimidex) on hand in case of estro-related sides

PCT:
Week 14: 2x50mg Clomid ED
Week 15-18: 500iU *HCG/Pregnyl or Ovidrel?* EOD until vial is finished
Week 15-18: Nolva 40/40/20/20

How does that cycle & PCT look to you guys? Would you recommend HCG/Pregnyl or Ovidrel? Please let me know guys, thanks in advance.

ABC01 wrote: @ Muscleaddict: Thanks for the info boet! Would be interesting to hear the views of the old hands like Jackrabbit/admin/DJ/Tiny/pump ect on this..............

Indeed, the science behind AAS and PCT gets helluva confusing and even more so when you have TRT specialists who we look to for advice with what seems like conflicting views.

A 2009 study I found on pubmed also states that rHCG (recombinant therefore the same as ovidrel) doses produced a "steep, dose-proportional increase in serum and urine HCG with increases in serum and urine T and suppression of serum and urine LH".

MK dude, your PCT is basically Doctari's PCT but without the Aromasin. It is very important that you do not leave the aromasin out. Your test levels during PCT will be lower without it due to testosterone converting to estrogen. Estrogen is exactly what you want to prevent.

500iu HCG a week in split shots throughout the 10 weeks is fine to keep your balls working for your next cycle. I would be looking for trouble here blatantly recommending any PCT other than Doctari's on this forum lol, and it clearly does work.

He's also missing the Aromasin from Doctari's PCT.

@MK: go with the Ovidrel if you don't mind paying a bit more - the pregnyl burns like a proper bee sting. Like Sleon mentioned, the long ester in Supertest is cyp, so you need to start your PCT in week 15 not 14.

Alright thanks Muscleaddict, what I'll do it keep my Arimidex on-hand on-cycle and then will start using it at 0.25mg EOD throughout PCT. Or should I even start using it during the bridge, whilst using Winni?

Then instead of only doing a mid-cycle 20 day 'blast' of HCG I will use it consistently throughout the 10 weeks as you suggested. Does that mean that I should ALSO use it from Week 2 onwards of my PCT, using 500iU EOD?

Just need to clear up that confusion man, sorry.

@Eidolon: Ok thanks for your advice bro, really appreciate it. Will definitely spend a bit more on the Ovidrel, and will extend my bridge (including the Winni) to 5 weeks instead of 4.

When you mix HCG with the sabax water, how long can you actually keep it in the fridge before its useless?

ABC01 wrote: When you mix HCG with the sabax water, how long can you actually keep it in the fridge before its useless?

30 days. It's so dirt cheap that it really isn't worth taking a risk.

MK wrote: Alright thanks Muscleaddict, what I'll do it keep my Arimidex on-hand on-cycle and then will start using it at 0.25mg EOD throughout PCT. Or should I even start using it during the bridge, whilst using Winni?

Then instead of only doing a mid-cycle 20 day 'blast' of HCG I will use it consistently throughout the 10 weeks as you suggested. Does that mean that I should ALSO use it from Week 2 onwards of my PCT, using 500iU EOD?

Just need to clear up that confusion man, sorry.

Arimidex and aromasin are completely different drugs. You should not substitute aromasin for arimidex in PCT. If you are going to do Doctari's pct then do it right boet.
Arimidex like letro will give u estrogen rebound when you stop it unless you taper off which can cause post cycle gyno (I've had this and its a bitch!). It is harsher on your lipid profile and lowers IGF1. Not great for PCT. Use it on cycle.

I think some of the guys i have mentioned in previous posts needs to jump in here. Soon we will have mass pct hysteria

Shit, had no idea bro thanks for letting me know! I was told on another forum a while back that they're practically the same drug, but that they just differ in efficacy. Show you can't trust any source over the internet!

Will definately invest in some aromasin for my next cycle though for my PCT, and will only use the Arimidex on-cycle if I need to. Will either do it right or won't do it at all. Regarding the Arimidex though, I am currently tapering off as we speak, going from 0.25mg EOD to 0.25mg E3D during my bridge before proper PCT. Just to check, was I wrongly informed about starting a Test Enanthate PCT, 2 weeks after last pin?

MK wrote: Just to check, was I wrongly informed about starting a Test Enanthate PCT, 2 weeks after last pin?

PCT starts 30 days after last pin.

Thanks Eidolon. May I ask why, if the half-life of Test E is 10.5 days, you have to wait 3 times that period before starting PCT? I thought you start PCT as soon as the Test has left your system? Sorry for sounding stupid about this if its a very obvious answer...

MK wrote: Thanks Eidolon. May I ask why, if the half-life of Test E is 10.5 days, you have to wait 3 times that period before starting PCT? I thought you start PCT as soon as the Test has left your system? Sorry for sounding stupid about this if its a very obvious answer...

Half-life is not the same as active life. The half-life of a compound determines how long it will take until your blood levels contain half of the steroid. To simplify it, if you pin 1000mg of Test E once, you will have 500mg active after 10.5 days. And 250mg 10.5 days later. So even after 30 days, you still have higher than natural test levels.

The timing of PCT is important to prevent you from wasting your money while there is still too much active compound circulating, which will make it impossible for your body to recover, or leave it too late, leaving you depressed and deflated, with possible estrogen rebound.

@Eidolon: Thanks very much man, makes things much clearer now.

I've read that Ovidrel doesn't need to be kept refrigerated, is that true? When I run my 10-12 week Supertest cycle(640mg/2mls Each Week) I am thinking of having one 0.1ml(650iU) shot of Ovidrel each week for the duration of my cycle. Would I need to split those into 2 shots a week like I will be doing with the Supertest?

Apparently HCG/Pregnyl only works for 30 days once mixed, so I'm definately not using that on-cycle. If the Ovidrel does not have to be kept in the fridge, I will also use it during my PCT and will be following Doctari's PCT, therefore pinning 0.1ml(650iU) EOD, starting the day after I finish the Clomid.

I'm basing these conclusions on what I have read, and just want to make sure that they are correct. If they aren't correct, would someone please correct me? Thanks in advance.