Advice Please: NPP + Test 2nd Cycle

Howzit guys. Been doing some research for a while now on an NPP and Test cycle, but have seen so many conflicting opinions about what is the best route to follow.

I have recently finished an 8 week Test E cycle of 300mg/week (Monday, Thursday split) as my first inj. cycle, just to see how my body reacts to Test in terms of gains and sides. I was pretty disappointed with the results I got, even though I knew my cycle was a 'testing' cycle. I gained 2.5kgs and my strength hardly increased at all. Kept diet strict, and training intensity high, so the gains could have been from just eating correctly. Also I'm a bit of a hypocondriac so throughout the cycle I also took 0.25mg of Liquidex(Arimidex) EOD and 500iU of HCG also split on Monday and Thursday.
Spent a lot of money to gain hardly anything, so this time round I wana do it right and proper.

I have a choice of 3 different cycles, all involving NPP, and would appreciate any advice you guys have to offer!

1st OPTION:
Week 1-6: 150mg(1ml) NPP on Monday, Wednesday, Friday
Week 1-6: 100mg(1ml) Test P on Monday, Wednesday, Friday
Week 1-6: 500iU HCG split on Monday & Friday
Week 1-8: 0.5mg Arimidex EOD

Week 9-12(PCT): Nolva 40/40/20/20

2nd OPTION:
Week 1-6: 225mg(1.5ml) NPP on Monday morning and Thursday night
Week 1-6: 320mg(1ml) Supertest on Monday morning and Thursday night
Week 1-6: 500iU HCG split on Monday & Friday
Week 1-8: 0.5mg Arimidex EOD

Week 9-12(PCT): Nolva 40/40/20/20

3rd OPTION:
Week 1-6: 150mg(1ml) NPP on Monday, Wednesday, Friday
Week 1-6: 320mg(1ml) Supertest on Monday and Friday
Week 1-6: 500iU HCG split on Monday & Friday
Week 1-8: 0.5mg Arimidex EOD

Week 9-12(PCT): Nolva 40/40/20/20

A few questions I have regarding these cycle options:

1) Does the Test have to be run at the same, or at a higher dose as the NPP?
2) Is it entirely necessary to run the Test 2 weeks longer than the NPP?
3) Should the AI(Arimidex) ONLY be taken if estrogen-related sides begin to develop? (As opposed to throughout the cycle from start to PCT)
4) Will it be fine to run the Test Prop at a low (300mg/week) dose with a higher dose of NPP (450mg/week) so that I let the NPP do the work?

I am willing to change anything in order to maximise results, as long as it is kept relatively short as I am not looking forward to 10 weeks of EOD injections. I am only planning on doing this cycle in June or so, so I have time to get more cash although I currently have enough for one of these basic cycles.

What are your suggestions on a short cycle such as this one? I am currently training atleast 5 times a week of high intensity weight training, along with a good diet, and weigh 94kgs at 5'11" with 12% BF. My goal is to reach 100kgs of relatively lean muscle mass, and hope NPP along with good dieting, training and sleep will do the trick!

Oh forgot to add that I (very stupidly) kept the Test with the HCG in the fridge for the first 5 weeks, so either that caused the Test to lose efficacy or it was bunk. Cos I know for a fact that I did everything else right, such as dieting, training and resting. Didn't drink or smoke, or even go out once on that cycle either! When I started I was 91.5kgs, so maybe the Test was just underdosed as I could possibly have a natural test production that's similar to that? Just an assumption by the way...

Without going through all your questions i would rather do something like this (i am sure Jackrabbit will support me here since it is one of his favourite combos)

week 1-8: NPP 150mg eod
week: 1-10: 150mg test prop eod
Last 6 weeks of cycle and leading up to pct 50mg winni ed

Leave the hcg for during pct and add clomid and nolva for a straight forward pct

It is advisableto run the test prop for 2 weeks longer than the NPP but not all do this. It is mainly for the NPP to clear the system while staying max anabolic. If you don't wanne do it for 10 weeks than do both for 8 or do NPP for 6 and the test prop for 8

You are aware that time off cycle = time on + pct............

I've had some nice experiences with NPP. But with me gains come late.
I only started seeing improvements at week 7/8 and thats when most people end their cycles.

Id go for 1ml NPP(150mg) and 2 ml Test Prop(150mg) EOD. I have run it with 1.5 ml Test Prop before without having libido problems but higher than that i could feel my BP going up. But that was a while ago and i can handle the larger dose so go with that if you are comfortable.

You can try to run this cycle for 8 weeks, but i had some great results even at week 12 when i stopped. I wont even consider 8 weeks myself, but thats ME.

Use HCG on cycle. Make sure you do Doctari's PCT in the PCT section. I've had proper recovery every single time on that even after seriously long Nandrolone cycles.

Youre using PGW right? No more chances of bunk gear... right?
Diet from DJ?

@Jackrabbit: would you still consider hcg during cycle even if this cycle is 8 weeks?

@ABC01: When you say EOD for the NPP and Prop, is it ok just to run it on Mon, Wed, Fri and then have a 'rest throughout the weekend'? Only pinning on those days would be most suitable for me, but if you feel that it should be strictly EOD would you please elaborate for me so that I learn why? I think I would prefer running the NPP for 6 weeks for 2 reasons. Firstly, seeing this will be my first time with nandro I don't want to run it for too long and give it enough time to let sides take effect. Secondly, by only running it for 6 weeks, it'll mean that I'll only have to use two vials as the brand I will be using (PGW) only has 150mg/ml NPP. So, if I'm right here, I will actually be able to run the NPP for 6 weeks + 2ml extra which I could use in the 7th week. But if I ran 150mg Monday, Wednesday and Friday for 8 weeks, it'll mean that I'll still have 6mls of NPP left over, meaning that if I wanted to finish it I would have to run it for 10 weeks which is something I don't wanna try (yet).

And if running the Test 2 weeks longer than the NPP will maximise results then I will definately do that! And a friend of mine who's helping me get the gear also recommended using the hcg after the cycle, but the question I have regarding that is why let your HPTA drop so low and then blast it back hoping it will recover, whenyou can run the hcg throughout your cycle and prevent the boys from taking a beating in the first place? Does hcg on-cycle hinder gains or something?

Lastly, when you said "time off cycle=time on + PCT" did you mean that after my PCT I should wait for a time equivalent to that of my cycle and PCT? Sorry just a bit confused

@jackrabbit1: Yes will be using PGW so hopefully I won't have to deal with that problem ever again!

Thanks for your input guys, much appreciated!

I don't know about including Test Prop because PGW's Test P only comes in 100mg/ml with all the brands I can get my hands on, so doing 4.5mls of Prop each week is going to prove costly... Also the SuperTest has Prop and another short-ester Test in it, so surely I could use that? Or do you feel Test Prop is a must with the NPP?

Would it be possible to run the Test Prop at a lower dose than the NPP, therefore minimizing sides from Test and letting the NPP do most of the work? Or would that give me nasty sides, such as the dreaded deca-dick which I REALLY don't wana get... What I'm trying to say, is what could happen to me by running the Test at a lower dose than the NPP?

Perhaps I could do this:

Week 1-6: 150mg NPP on Monday, Wednesday, Friday [+2mls in 7th week]
Week 1: 250mg(1 Amp/1ml) Testoviron on Monday and Friday
Week 2: 250mg(1 Amp/1ml) Testoviron on Monday.
Week 3-8: 100mg Test Prop Monday, Wednesday, Friday [the 2mls extra would be used in Week 2]

Week 10-14: Doctari's PCT

By doing this, I will only have to buy 2xNPP and 2xTest Prop with 3 Amps of Testoviron and will finish all 3 without having leftovers.

If you only want to run a 6-8 week cycle test prop is the better option , as the time you stop the cycle the long esters from the super test would only have started to kick in , and time before pct is going to be much longer .

You should never run test lower than npp or deca or tren , you will suffer from libido issues

@SLEON: Thanks man, appreciate your advice. Think I'm just gonna wait it out until I have the cash to do this properly instead of doing it 75% and end up being disappointed again...

And just for interest's sake, how would you compare the gains of 6 weeks NPP and 8 weeks Test Prop to a longer cycle of 10-12 weeks of SuperTest?

eg:
Week 1-10: 320mg(1ml) SuperTest on Monday morning and Thursday night
Week 1-10: 250iU HCG on Monday and Thursday
Week 1-12: 0.25mg Arimidex(Liquidex) EOD

Week 13-16(PCT): Nolva 40/40/20/20

OR:
Week 1-4: 160mg(0.5ml) SuperTest on Monday morning and Thursday night
Week 5-12: 320mg(1ml) SuperTest on Monday morning and Thursday night
Week 1-12: 250iU HCG on Monday and Thursday
Week 1-14: 0.25mg Arimidex(Liquidex) EOD

Week 15-18(PCT): Nolva 40/40/20/20

You will get good gains from the super test alone , considering it would be your first "propper cycle" i would however keep the dosage the same from week 1 till the end e.g. 320mg monday and 320mg thursday . Also remember you waiting period will be longer before pct . Basically 3x the half life of the longest ester in super test

I think the longest ester is cypionate ( correct me if i am wrong )

MK wrote: @ABC01: When you say EOD for the NPP and Prop, is it ok just to run it on Mon, Wed, Fri and then have a 'rest throughout the weekend'?

No. You need to pin EOD to maintain stable plasma levels. Rather lower the dosage than skip a weekend if you are afraid of sides - you can always up it slightly later in the cycle.

1st off: time to wait between cycles is = time on cycle + pct duration

2nd: General consensus is that you should pin NPP eod. But if you want to get technical here it can actually be pinned monday/wednesday and friday since it has a 4.5day half life (DJ will back me here). This however is not the norm.

Just aim for at least 450mg/week NPP
Use test prop at at least the same dosage as the NPP (use test prop instead of the testoviron)

This is a good cutting cycle. A 12 week supertest cycle is also great and the gains would probably be more significant and noticeable. If you are allready in good condition and want to fine tune your physique then the 8 week cycle would be great. However if you want to to make good changes to your current condition i would go for a 12 week supertest cycle. I am currently doing a 14 week supertest cycle and with a good diet i am loving what i am seeing. If this is a 1st cycle you can consider 1.5ml supertest/week with a kicker and riding the esters out with winni. If this is a 2nd or 3rd cycle you can go for 2ml supertest/week. You only have to pin once per week. 2 x per week wont really make the bloodlevels more stable

Alright, thanks very much for your inputs guys, you've all helped me understand some concepts a lot clearer, thank you.

Seeing that this will be my 2nd injectable cycle SLEON, my first being 300mg/week of Test E for 8 weeks which saw me gain only 2.5kgs with a good diet, heavy training (5-6 times a week), good rest, and no alcohol/smoking etc, I am hoping that I will yield greater results this time around.

My mate, who will supply me, has told me rather to go for Axio's Sustaplex 325mg/ml, which he believes will work just as well, if not better than the SuperTest. It's also almost the exact same price as the SuperTest so I have no problem with that. I will pin for 10 weeks at 2mls per week (Monday-Thursday split). I might even consider throwing in 300mg/week of NPP from Week 4-8, but not 100% sure on that... However, if I do throw in the NPP would it be possible to also do the Monday-Thursday split for the NPP, just like the Sustaplex? I'm just wondering, as ABC01 says NPP's half-life is 4.5 days, so surely a Monday-Thursday split will be fine?

@ABC01: I have been training for 6 years now, 4 years seriously and I am 94kgs at 5'11" with 11-12% BF, so I'm not too bad off. My goal is to get to 100kg and losing some BF wouldn't hurt either. Do you think with Sustaplex at 650mg/week will help me attain my goal, provided I eat right, rest well and train like a demon? Or do you think I will need NPP thrown into my cycle to get there? Just to let you know, I do find it quite hard to gain, so that's my reason for asking if that is an attainable goal of 100kgs.

Without the NPP, I'm looking at a cycle like this:
Week 1-10: 325mg Sustaplex on Monday and Thursday
Week 1-10: 500iU HCG split on Monday & Thursday
Week 1-12: 0.25mg Arimidex(Liquidex) EOD
Week 14-18(PCT): Nolva 40/40/20/20

Is there any tweaking you guys could suggest to that proposed cycle that would improve my results, provided that I don't use NPP? Such as using Orals half-way through or even an Oral bridge?

Appreciate all your help once again guys!

Personally I don't trust axio stuff these days,if he is suggesting sustaplex over supertest its because he is making more $$$,pgw is more of a priemium brand than axio in my honest opinion.

Don't know sustaplex bud but i can vouch for supertest. 10 weeks will probably be fine but 12 weeks better. If you are set on using sustplex i would do something like this:

1-12: 2ml sustaplex/week (pinned once per week or 1ml 2x, your call)
1-5: Tbol 60mg ed
11-17: winni 50mg ed
adex @ 0.024mg eod up until 1 day before pct
pct starts 36 days after last pin
midway into cycle use hcg at 250IU eod for 10 pins

PCT: day 1-7 clomid 50mg 2x/day
day 8-37: nolvadex 20mg ed
from day 8 pin 500IU eod till the 5000IU vial is finished

Keep it simple. The NPP is nice for strength gains and to lube the joints but rather leave it for when you running a short ester cycle. People tend to overcomplicate cycles mixing long and short esters. It just makes pin planning a nightmare

Im doing something simular and have gained just over 3 kg in 4 weeks while dropping bf. The cycle helps with pushing the weights but nothing would be possible without the correct diet. DJ is the master

@DJ: Ok thanks, will try my best to push him into getting PGW over Axio.

@ABD01: Yes I see where you're coming from regarding choosing the 12 weeks over 10 weeks, however if I am running 2mls of SuperTest/Sustaplex (640mg/650mg) each week for 10 weeks I will only need two complete vials, whereas opting for a 12 week cycle would mean that I would need a third vial of the Test and 6mls would not be used which I don't really want to do.

Also howcome different people feel that SuperTest/Sustaplex has to be pinned twice a week, but then other people feel that only once a week would suffice?

So for a 10 week cycle of Sustaplex/SuperTest, I will run Arimidex throughout up until PCT. Why though, would HCG only be used mid-way for 20days? Should I not rather run HCG half-way through up until PCT then just run a PCT of Clomid for the first week followed by 4 weeks of Nolva?

Thanks

Due to the short esters in the product MK. Do not run adex unless you have to! Suppressing estrogen can suppress gains.

@DJ: Ok thanks, will rather keep the Adex on hand incase of gyno etc, and if estro-related sides occur I will use 0.25mg ED of the Adex for 2 weeks or until cleared.

Could I use 40mg Dbol for the first 4 weeks as a kicker? I will therefore be starting HCG at Week 5 for 20days, pinning 250iU EOD, then stopping. PCT will commense 36 days after last SuperTest pin, which will include the abovementioned Clomid/Nolva along with starting the HCG again at 500iU EOD until the vial is finished?

Thanks to everyone for all your advice, this has really helped me a lot!

MK wrote: @DJ: Ok thanks, will rather keep the Adex on hand incase of gyno etc, and if estro-related sides occur I will use 0.25mg ED of the Adex for 2 weeks or until cleared.

Could I use 40mg Dbol for the first 4 weeks as a kicker? I will therefore be starting HCG at Week 5 for 20days, pinning 250iU EOD, then stopping. PCT will commense 36 days after last SuperTest pin, which will include the abovementioned Clomid/Nolva along with starting the HCG again at 500iU EOD until the vial is finished?

Thanks to everyone for all your advice, this has really helped me a lot!

As DJ stated, running a AI during cycle can hinder gains. I opted to run it throughout for 2 reasons.
1. little bit of ensurence to keep gyno at bay
2. less water retention

Check the sample cycle section. It will give you a good idea of a pct structure. In my opinion you don not have to run hcg throughout cycle. In a relatively long cycle it is beneficial to add it somewhere in the middle just give those "balls" a bit of a boost. Think it is easier then do jumpstart natural test production after your cycle. Im doing it at 250IU for 10 pins eod (20days). You have to understand there are many ways to structure a cycle. Some would do it differently.

Dbol is probably the most used kicker. I have never used it and never will. I don't want to look like the michelin man. It is however very effective for quick strength gains and apprently gives you i nice feeling of "wellbeing". It is also the most aboused steroid especially with the younger crowd so i have kind of a negative connectation with it

Your structure seems fine to me. Introduce the HCG during PCT after the clomid when you start the nolva

@ABC01: Yes, those are also the reasons why I am inclined on using it throughout cycle. To what degree would you say my gains would be hindered with using it on cycle? My thinking is that the additional gains I would get without an AI would just be water retentive gains, so would make sense to use an AI anyway...

I think I will do the mid-cycle EOD and the PCT use of HCG, really don't want to be regretful a little later on. Will probably just get 3mls of Pregnyl 1500iU/ml, and use 2500iU mid-cycle going EOD and then finish the rest off after I've finished my Clomid in my PCT, just as I start Nolva.

Regarding the Dbol, do you think I should use a different oral instead, perhaps Winstrol? Or even Proviron?

So if that's my final 10 Week cycle of 640mg/week of SuperTest, is 100kgs a realistic goal?

It is impossible to gauge how much more you would have gained without the AI. For me the benefits outweighs the possible less gains.

You can use Tbol as frontload. Im doing that and loving it. Proviron is a great oral to run throughout your cycle. Not something for frontloading. I see no reason you can't do winni as a frontload and then again to close off the cycle. I am thinking of doing that next cycle. Winni is however quite harsh on your liver so keep that in mind if you wanne run it twice in the same cycle

Your current stats is 94kg with 10-12% bf. 100kg is definately very realistic. Your bf is nice and low to see progress during cycle as well. I think if you can go into this very dedicated and stick to a well structured diet you will walk out of this cycle a very very happy man

@ABC01: I totally agree with you about the benefits of AI's.

Yes, I have been considering that, but at what dose and for how long? Will that frontload do much in terms of goals, or would it just be a kg or 2? If so, I would rather not spend the money on that, but rather on quality foods for throughout my cycle, and will benefit from my increased appetite and can let the supertest work its magic! However, I have heard that Proviron on cycle does help with making solid gains, so that could be an option for the last 2 weeks of my cycle along with the bridge between cycle and PCT... And perhaps I stay away from Winni whilst on cycle.

Wow, I hope that I can make gains as good as that! I recently ended my first cycle and will be starting PCT on Thursday the 5th of April, so when that's finished I will wait for my 'time on + PCT' before starting this 2nd cycle, which will be in the beginning of August.

Just a quick question for my upcoming PCT. I will be doing Nolva at 40/40/20/20 and just wanted to know if there's anything that I could run during, or after, my PCT to try and up my final gains? Such as Schering (Paki) Proviron or some Winni or something for a few weeks? Thanks in advance

Let me make it more clear. You need to calculate from the 1st day of your cycle up until the last day of your pct (the time between cycle and pct as well). That will be your time off before you start a new cycle.

I am currently frontloading with Tbol at 60mg ed for 5 weeks. The strenght increases from Tbol is very quick. There is no water retension and it puts you in a good nick till the supertest kick around mid week 4 (for me anyway). I reckon it is beneficial on my cycle. Adding winni is great to harden you up end cycle. I won't do a cycle without it. The proviron also helps. I am running it throughout cycle at 40mg ed. You can add it in when you start the winni but its not critical. Just leave it if your not running it throughout. Rather go with the winni in my opinion

Strange PCT you are currently doing. Not familiar with a pct structure like that. Do not take anything AAS during pct or thereafter. The idea of a pct is to giveyour body a chance to recover. Keep your diet in check and keep training. That is about all you can do