help with lats???? need to spread the wings!!

hay guys,i've been battling with my back workouts(my lats realy) was hoping could have a look at my workout and see if should change anything.

exercise #1: wide grip lat pull down, 2 warm up sets then 4 sets of 12,10,8,6.
exercise #2: close under hand grip lat pull downs, 4 sets 12,10,8,6.
exercise #3: undergrip bent over BB rows 4 sets 12,10,8,6.
exercise #4: 1 arm DB rows 4 sets 12,10,8,6.

i increase the weight for every exercise after each set, and should i move my deadlifts from days i gym legs to back workouts?

any help would be great.

exercise 1 : pull ups, 60 reps,as many sets as needed (even if its 60 sets of 1 rep)
exercise 2 : deadlifts 4 sets of 6-8reps (failure on 8th rep)
exercise 3 : bent over rows 4 sets of 6-8 reps (failure on 8th rep)
exercise 4 : low rows 4 sets of 6-8 reps.

basically douing 12,10,8,6 is a waste of time for growth,once u have warmed up move straight on to the weight u do for 6 reps and go to failure on each set,by doing 12,10,8 reps all u are doing is fatiguing the muscle with a lighter weight before u are actually failing cos your weight is heavy enough.

i mean for eg, biceps, u are doing 5kg curls for 12 reps,8 kg curls for 10 reps,10kg curls for 8 reps and 12 kg curls for 6 reps, by the time 12kg curls being done your muscle is tired, u should start with 12kg curls for 6-8 reps and it should be heavy enough for u to fail on the 8th rep... i bet u right now if u start doing this for all your exercises u will grow alot more than u are now...

manny thanks Dj, just some questions, for the pull ups should it be a wide grip? and the bent over rows should i use an under hand or over hand grip? and you say i should apply the 4 sets of 6-8 reps for all my other workouts also, but what would you say will stimulate more growth in the quads 3 sets of balls to floor squats for 20 reps or the 6-8 reps of failure? and last question with the 6-8 reps i should try to use as much perfect form as possible right? many thanks

Hey bud for your lats there is no better workout exercise (well for me anyway than) lat pull downs.Make sure you pull that bar all the way down until it touches your neck and make sure that your body doesn't sway or move at all during the exercise so just your isolating your swaying and just using your lats and arms to pull the bar down.Proper form is more important than lifting the most .Hope this helps bro.

dj u said 50 reps last time! i barely make that,... 60
anyhow,wont it be better to bring the reps down and do weighted pull ups? based on the same argument of not tiring the muscles but working them from the start

Pull ups are always the way to go in my opinion. Weighted are all well and good but unnecessary for most people. How many unweighted pull ups can you manage in a set?

As for pull downs, i find that the benefit of pulling behind the neck is not worth the risk of rotator cuff injury. Rather just pull down in front of your chest. Behind the head pulldowns place the shoulder in extreme external rotation while under stress... A recipe for injury

m0lt3n wrote: dj u said 50 reps last time! i barely make that,... 60
anyhow,wont it be better to bring the reps down and do weighted pull ups? based on the same argument of not tiring the muscles but working them from the start

nope cos u are failing each time and the sets get lower and lower,i mean think of this,if u are doing 50 reps, and u do 2 sets of 10, thats warm up and then u need to do 5 sets of 6 cos u fail all the time on the 6 th rep...get what i am getting at.

slingz wrote: manny thanks Dj, just some questions, for the pull ups should it be a wide grip? and the bent over rows should i use an under hand or over hand grip? and you say i should apply the 4 sets of 6-8 reps for all my other workouts also, but what would you say will stimulate more growth in the quads 3 sets of balls to floor squats for 20 reps or the 6-8 reps of failure? and last question with the 6-8 reps i should try to use as much perfect form as possible right? many thanks

6-8 reps bro... at the end of the day higher reps build endurance,lower reps build muscle, remember a strong muscle is a big muscle,so whats gonna allow u to use more weight? 20 reps sets or 6-8rep sets? i mean for the 20 rep sets u might squat with 60kg but the 6-8 rep sets u will squat with 140kgs... whats gonna tear the muscle more and whats gonna build endurance?

oooooooh oki, i understand what you getting at dj, the whole concept of 6-8 reps failure. ive been reading the max ot pda and its very similar to that, there it says 4-6 reps, is it a big difference between 4-6 reps or 6-8 reps? im really keen to try out the max ot program, looks good:woohoo: opinions on should i do it?

MAX OT is excellent,i wont lie,the only problem i find is that i start getting niggles in the joints after a while if i do the program longer than 8 weeks,i also find that doing a 4day split is a bit more benefitial as u have a break after 2 days so coritisol levels dont raise to much.

thanks for the reply on the pull ups dj.

I must say the old school guys at the gym just doesnt want to listen that they are stressing their rotator cuffs when doing behind the head pull downs.

so let the old guys learn the hard way....if u are growing doing what u doing u dont need to advice from anyone else other than your body...

Hey dj you said something about training everyday raising cortisol levels,i train everyday do you think this could be a problem?
also i hate doing seated lat pulldowns but i do lots of wide grip chin ups is it ok to do chin ups instead of lat pulldowns on the machine?

u should essentially take a break every 2 days from training,so yes it can give u a few problems if u arent eating enough....

the niggles in the joints is prob from all the heavy weights causing presure right? i get abit of pain in my knee and wrists every now and then when doing squats and bench press, anything that could help me releive the pain?

Omegas and Arthro guard fixed my knees but my wrists just doesnt wanna keep up with the benching, would also like feedback on that? (not using arthro guard anymore though)

slingz do u place your thumb with your index finger or around the bar? I am starting to think its this grip issue causing the pain.

DJ, I usually gym for 4 days straight and then rest for the weekend, how bad is this for the cortisol levels or should I just continue while making sure my dieet is fine?

molten you should prob get someone to take a look at that wrist. If you've sprained it slighlty it may need some form of treatment in order to recover properly. There a number of possible causes for wrist pain, and while bench press can aggravate it there may still be more to it than just a niggle

when i bench my thumbs is around the bar. i've been told that cissus q is good for joints anybody know anything bout it?

and the max ot, just looking at it, very few sets involved in a workout, doesnt sound like it would greatly increase the muscles, should i stick to the exact program of exercises or just incorperate the 4-6 reps on my own exercises? any personel experinces would be great

m0lt3n wrote: Omegas and Arthro guard fixed my knees but my wrists just doesnt wanna keep up with the benching, would also like feedback on that? (not using arthro guard anymore though)

slingz do u place your thumb with your index finger or around the bar? I am starting to think its this grip issue causing the pain.

DJ, I usually gym for 4 days straight and then rest for the weekend, how bad is this for the cortisol levels or should I just continue while making sure my dieet is fine?

I broke my wrist previously and it would trouble me when benching heavy or doing bicep curls. I got my self one of those velcro wrist straps that hook into ur thumb and used that for support along with some arthro guard for a few months, and it worked well. Also i would bench with dumbells sometimes as well, just to change things up a bit so i do not rely on my strong hand to take the strain all the time.

I had issues with my shoulder as well and went for a few sessions of acupuncture, which sorted me out.

the first thing to do with any sort of injury is to get someone qualified to take a look at it and figure out what the problem. Leaving it too long can only make it worse, so many patients of mine let there injuries become chronic problems and what could have been a simple issue to resolve becomes a long term complicated problem

spike wrote: the first thing to do with any sort of injury is to get someone qualified to take a look at it and figure out what the problem. Leaving it too long can only make it worse, so many patients of mine let there injuries become chronic problems and what could have been a simple issue to resolve becomes a long term complicated problem

Word!!! I hurt my foot playing cricket, but left it for around 8 months cos i wanted to finish up the season. When i did eventually go an see an Orthapaedic surgeon, cos the pain was unbearable, they had to operate to correct the sprain.

Ja i stuffed up my knee doing leg press at gym about 3 months ago and i saw a qualified person about it one week after it happend to me and he said that my tendon was pulled but recovery time is about 4 months.So i went to accupuncture 5 times over 5 weeks and massaged it 3 times per day and straight after the massage i would put and ice block on it for 5 mins.It works wonders guys.Knee is now fine.But i still keep an eye on it though while training it.

Go get it checked. I broke my finger and hand and left it thinking it wasn't too bad. It healed wrong and caused so many issues. I ended up having to get and op where they re-broke it to set it right. Took forever to come right. Rather be safe than sorry.

Something i get tho is a clicking in my shoulder when i bench, but more when i do shoulder press.... I have had it checked and it seems fine. But its crap annoying. Anyone know what it could be? I was hit off my motor bike a while back. Think its related?

Does it give you any pain?
It could be just a snapping tendon passing over a bone, or it could be in the joint itself. If its not causing pain then dont stress too much

i rate pullups as the best lat exercise

but heres where my prob comes in

i used to have nice wide lats whilst doing pullups etc. but by not training the majority of this year they have def wained. struggling like crazy to get them back. thing is i cant even do 1 pullup anymore. have a bad shoulder and besides that i think im too heavy. can one be too heavy for pullups? im 130kg @ 10% bf.