Do you need liver support on test?

So I ran dbol for the first 3 1/2 weeks of my cycle, now on week 6, is it necessary to still be using a liver support supplement?

Better safe than sorry hey bro, best is get your liver values checked.

Considering the crap we put our bodies through I run something year round.
They're all preventative maintainance anyway. Don't do anything major, just help the body get along.

What's your take on milk thistle limiting gains Inja?

It does not hinder my gains bud.
The active in Milk Thistle is at very low concentrations comaparative to studies showing AR decreasing effects. Besides Test increases nuclear AR concentrations, so this more than accounts for any loss.

Inja wrote: It does not hinder my gains bud.
The active in Milk Thistle is at very low concentrations comaparative to studies showing AR decreasing effects. Besides Test increases nuclear AR concentrations, so this more than accounts for any loss.

Strange, the Doc said advised me to stop taking milk thistle from my contest prep stating that it hinders gains.

Prunella Vulgaris: anti-estrogen & liver protector
Posted by Anthony Roberts in Nutritional Companies & Supplements, Other | 0 comments
Jan 14, 2011
A few months ago I had some unkind words to say about Milk Thistle. In short, I don’t like it because it will interfere with your androgen receptors along with your IGF-1 pathways. That means, for steroid (or prohormone or test-booster) users, it will ultimately make a the cycle less effective.
Prunella Vulgaris is an alternative to Milk Thistle, that will not only protect your liver from damage, but will also act as an anti-estrogen. Hence, I think it’s time we declare Milk Thistle obsolete for several reasons:
It reduces reducing androgen receptor transactivation
It inhibits the IGF-I signaling pathway
There’s a better alternative (Prunella Vulgaris)
Prunella Vulgaris has been used for centuries in Chinese folk medicine, where it is known as heal-all. My interest in the compound was because it turns out to be an exceptionally potent anti-estrogen (Biol Reprod. 2009 Feb;80(2):375-83.), may help prevent cardiovascular disease (Am J Chin Med. 2010;38(3):599-611.), is an anti-oxidant that stimulates the immune system, (Molecules. 2010 Dec 10;15(12):9145-56), and can even protect the liver (Biol Pharm Bull. 2008 Mar;31(3):531-3.).
In fact, you’ll note that in the graph below*, the ability of Prunella Vulgaris to reduce estrogen approaches that of the prescription anti-estrogen (Selective Estrogen Receptor Downregulator) ICI 182 780 (Falsodex/Fulvestrant):

And when it was tested (*and compared to milk thistle/similaryin) for it’s ability to improve antioxidant status in the bloodstream and the liver, it was found to be at least as effective (Pharmacol Res. 2004 Aug;50(2):123-30.):
… results indicate that silymarin and PVE [Prunella Vulgaris Extract] improve antioxidant status in blood and liver and positively affect plasma lipoprotein profile in an experimental model of dietary induced hypertriglyceridemia….
Prunella Vulgaris does everything for your liver that Milk Thistle can, but it has the added benefit of being an anti-estrogen, with none of the downsides. And, one of the worst parts of taking an anti-estrogen is the fact that estrogen is important for proper immune function – that’s why we see so many people who use (the highly potent aromatase inhibitor) Letrozole get sick while they’re on a cycle. Prunella should be a way around that problem, as it acts to reduce estrogen’s effects while also acting to stimulate (not suppress) your immune system.
I can’t help but think would make it a much more appealing compound for steroid/ph users, or for inclusion in a natural testosterone booster.
It’s available as a liquid (gross), a tea (yuck), or in capsule form at a variety of retailers, and is found in Driven Sports Triazole (an estrogen reducing nutritional supplement). (*Click to read full study on Prunella Vulgaris & estrogen:http://www.**************.info/wp-co...laestrogen.pdf

Ok, that is just being clever with words by Anthony once again, he posts results on a liver support product that boasts strong anti oxidant support however he does not show 1 study where milk thistle hinders gains? Milk Thistle has been used for years and years, and I don't see the bodybuilders that use it that I know of being that small in size. I'm not saying it doesn't but I like seeing results and not just using a chain mail of information passed down without supporting information.

Koekie wrote:

Inja wrote: It does not hinder my gains bud.
The active in Milk Thistle is at very low concentrations comaparative to studies showing AR decreasing effects. Besides Test increases nuclear AR concentrations, so this more than accounts for any loss.

Strange, the Doc said advised me to stop taking milk thistle from my contest prep stating that it hinders gains.

Yep, just a matter of jumping on the band wagon.. Yes in prostate cancer cells you can show AR down regulation. But put milk thistle in someone pumped with gear and show a significant drop. I think not.

00pump wrote: Ok, that is just being clever with words by Anthony once again, he posts results on a liver support product that boasts strong anti oxidant support however he does not show 1 study where milk thistle hinders gains? Milk Thistle has been used for years and years, and I don't see the bodybuilders that use it that I know of being that small in size. I'm not saying it doesn't but I like seeing results and not just using a chain mail of information passed down without supporting information.

Any gains made from steroids come with side effects, reduce the side effects and in essence you reduce the gains.

I don't understand that last comment Koe007, any drug put in your body comes with side effects, and just about everything from green tea to melatonin can be an effective anti oxidant, so I don't understand Anthony's angle yet again with his article.

Hmmm...
If I use a gram of test there are a lot of negative sides both androgenic and estrogenic.
If I half that to 0.5g and stack with o.5g of nandrolone then both androgenic and estrogenic sides are significantly reduced. But the synergy of nandrolone and test results in better gains.
So it seems that theory is universal eh?

Secondly, even if a liver support slightly hindered my gains (which milk thistle does not) I would consider marginally worse gains for a better off liver all cycle long a much much preferred trade off in the long run.

00pump wrote: I don't understand that last comment Koe007, any drug put in your body comes with side effects, and just about everything from green tea to melatonin can be an effective anti oxidant, so I don't understand Anthony's angle yet again with his article.

What im trying to say is that there are side effects with any steroids used, using one drug to reduce the effect of another will also have its own side effects, example using an AI will whilst reducing the aromitising effect of the steroid increases your liver values, lower your immune system etc. By lowering estrogen levels to low you will inhibit some of the gains you would have made by not using the AI altogether however will incur gyno if you are prone and water retention etc.

Whether or not it hinders gains cannot be proven until a test subject is take given a dose of orals with a specific diet over a specified period of time, with a set routine and bloods taken.
Then MT administered with the same test subject, all conditions the same and the results then compared. Until then all we are going on is broscience, in reality in order for the MT to be truly effective in prevention it would have to be taken at much higher doses then prescribed thus creating its own sets of problems, hence the FDA has not even approved statements of MT being able to treat, prevent or cure any disease at least that's what my bottle says.

Koe ahh yes, I see... However lets say this information on Milk Thistle is correct, I'm calling it a theory because I have yet to see proof that it can actually hinder gains, will it be even as marginal as the little drop of juice that is 'left inside of the needle' ? Or both that of PGW and LP having actually higher mg ratio than it is 'printed' to be eg: 50mg Anadrol might be dosed at 52/55mg, would we lose the effects of 2mg of Anadrol? Milk Thistle has been used for years and years by bodybuilders, and lets be honest, some serious monsters I know use it, and I don't really seem to see it slowing down their bodybuilding career success that much.

And anyway, back to liver support, I have said for a long time now, SAMe is still the most effective liver support one can use, not only is protection of the liver but in its ability to regenerate liver cells (this has been proven)