What and when?

Gday
Looking for some opinions on different sorts of supps, how important each is, and how much to take and when...

about to put in an order with LSJ for some wheyand trying to decide what else to get from his ever growing (and awesomely priced) selection...

Creatine is an easy choice as we all know the benefits there, but anyone have opinions on monohydrate vs all the new fancy tabs etc?
Best time is pre workout right?

Amino stack im not so clued up on?
Throughout the day i believe is best...

BCAAs after workout

ZMA? Before bed?

GABA... Before bed i know

L-Glutamine post workout

Obviously it gets a bit much to take all these, can anyone clear up for me which are considered most important and which would affect gains the most, also verify quantities and timing.
Every source seems to differ slightly so im interested on some personal opinions gained from experience.
Currently on cycle (supertest/equi) so in relation to that would help.

And seen as LSJ cant get waxy maize, any recommended brands out there? saw ON glycomaize goin for a good price at dischem today

Then finally, as a hardgainer trying to build mass while on cycle, how useful is a 'massbuilder' shake (high carb high protein), or am i much better off with solids? just find it hard to eat enough clean carbs throughut the day.

Thanks guys

BCAAs - at bedtime,when u wake up and after workout

ZMA? Before bed? - Yes

GABA... Before bed i know

L-Glutamine - at bedtime and post workout

'massbuilder' shake (high carb high protein - is good if from a decent supplier,but food still rocks,i only use shakes post workout and if im too busy to eat during the day,not to actually supplement a meal.

Creatine ester in "fancy tabs" give me a good pump and high energy in workouts,the monohydrate(powder form) not as good in my opinion.Many reviews even say its actually worthless.

not gonna start an arguement but I completely disagree on the creatine, monohydrate is the tries and trusted stuff, been more studies on monohydrate than I can count!
and as for the rest, Tiny has summed it up except for the BCAA's which I think should be taken during you're workout also

Argument started -

What is it and where does it come from?

Creatine Ethyl Ester HCL (CEE) is creatine monohydrate with an ester attached. Esters are organic compounds that are formed by esterification - the reaction of carboxylic acid and alcohols.

Regular creatine monohydrate has been shown effective at increasing lean muscle mass1,2,3,4, muscle strength5,6 and athletic performance.7,8

However, regular creatine monohydrate is absorbed poorly by the body - and its effectiveness is dependant upon the cells ability to absorb it. The poor absorption rate of regular creatine monohydrate requires the creatine user to ingest large dosages of creatine to achieve desired effect.

Because creatine draws water to the cell, and because most ingested creatine monohydrate is not absorbed, unabsorbed creatine will sit outside of the target cell with the water, and this will result in the "creatine bloat"

Creatine ethyl ester is creatine monohydrate with an ester attached. The attachment of an ester is significant, because esters are found in the fat tissue of animals. But, why is this important? What role does this have in the absorption of creatine?

All substances that you put into your body will affect its operation. There are three ways that substances can affect a cells operation. They are:

Ligand binding to protein receptor sites.
Secondary messenger / metabotropic systems
Passive permeation of the cell wall via lipids

This means, simply, that not only will dosage requirements be lower, but the absorption of esterified creatine will be increased and the infamous "creatine bloat" will be eliminated!

....It all boils down to a matter of choice,each to their own.

lol I knew I should've just stayed outta this

ok not gonna quote any studies but you're more than welcome to search for them.
creatine ethyl ester is a fat soluble substance meaning that it doesn't require insulin for it's uptake like regular monohydrate does.
so the only benefit is really the absorption do we all agree?
now if monohydrate is taken with water, what you stated above is 100% correct! but given the times that a person would use creatine you would more than likely be adding it to a protein shake containing vitargo/waxy maize/etc...
these simple carbs as we all know spike insulin, eliminating the problem of poor absorption.

I'm not saying I don't like the creatine ethyl ester but I honestly do believe that monohydrate is the best, given that it has the most research behind it.

I'm keen on trying it but this study sticks in my mind...

Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition 2009, 6:6

Numerous creatine formulations have been developed primarily to maximize creatine absorption. Creatine ethyl ester is alleged to increase creatine bio-availability. This study examined how a seven-week supplementation regimen combined with resistance training affected body composition, muscle mass, muscle strength and power, serum and muscle creatine levels, and serum creatinine levels in 30 non-resistance-trained males. In a double-blind manner, participants were randomly assigned to a maltodextrose placebo (PLA), creatine monohydrate (CRT), or creatine ethyl ester (CEE) group. The supplements were orally ingested at a dose of 0.30 g/kg fat-free body mass (approximately 20 g/day) for five days followed by ingestion at 0.075 g/kg fat free mass (approximately 5 g/day) for 42 days. Results showed significantly higher serum creatine concentrations in PLA (p = 0.007) and CRT (p = 0.005) compared to CEE. Serum creatinine was greater in CEE compared to the PLA (p = 0.001) and CRT (p = 0.001) and increased at days 6, 27, and 48. Total muscle creatine content was significantly higher in CRT (p = 0.026) and CEE (p = 0.041) compared to PLA, with no differences between CRT and CEE. Significant changes over time were observed for body composition, body water, muscle strength and power variables, but no significant differences were observed between groups. In conclusion, when compared to creatine monohydrate, creatine ethyl ester was not as effective at increasing serum and muscle creatine levels or in improving body composition, muscle mass, strength, and power. Therefore, the improvements in these variables can most likely be attributed to the training protocol itself, rather than the supplementation regimen.

whoop whoop!!!

I dont think it gets a bit much taking all of the following:

BCAAs : After training / Morning /Bed time
ZMA : Empty stomach ,
GABA Before bed , EMPTY stomach
L-Glutamine : Before /after training /Bed time
Creatine: morning /before training and after

Becomes routine for me. Most is taken at night.

Most important ???? Glutemine , Creatine , Gaba (to me)

acidkidsa wrote:

I dont think it gets a bit much taking all of the following:

BCAAs : After training / Morning /Bed time
ZMA : Empty stomach ,
GABA Before bed , EMPTY stomach
L-Glutamine : Before /after training /Bed time
Creatine: morning /before training and after

Becomes routine for me. Most is taken at night.

Most important ???? Glutemine , Creatine , Gaba (to me)

ZMA I take on empty stomach half and hour before bed.... Didn't know you needed to take Gaba on empty stomach though, I only have so many empty stomachs It still gives me the tingles etc. ??

UltimateThug wrote:

acidkidsa wrote:

I dont think it gets a bit much taking all of the following:

BCAAs : After training / Morning /Bed time
ZMA : Empty stomach ,
GABA Before bed , EMPTY stomach
L-Glutamine : Before /after training /Bed time
Creatine: morning /before training and after

Becomes routine for me. Most is taken at night.

Most important ???? Glutemine , Creatine , Gaba (to me)

ZMA I take on empty stomach half and hour before bed.... Didn't know you needed to take Gaba on empty stomach though, I only have so many empty stomachs It still gives me the tingles etc. ??

Yeah sorry I do the same with ZMA.

Gaba works best on a empty stomach and absorbs better. I keep it my mouth for a while then swallow it .

With the empty stomach party. I do it like this.

eg. 10pm GABA
10:15 ZMA / Glutemine.
10:30 Whey / EFA

Just try break it up as much as possible to give you stomach a chance to absorb all the muti .

As for the tingles .... I hardly get them anymore

Thanks Acid, will try that, been doing something similar, but even glutamine reacts with certain things so doing some more research.

Also, why the EFAs before bed, you not the first to suggest that?

ZMA gives me pimples anyone else have that problem? proof that its increasing testosterone??

spike wrote:

And seen as LSJ cant get waxy maize,

LSJ, please say its not true!! I love the stuff!!!

vega5 wrote:

spike wrote:

And seen as LSJ cant get waxy maize,

LSJ, please say its not true!! I love the stuff!!!

Ok you guys win :laugh:

Will order some again if I still can this year otherwise I will get first thing next year.

LSJ wrote:

vega5 wrote:

spike wrote:

And seen as LSJ cant get waxy maize,

LSJ, please say its not true!! I love the stuff!!!

Ok you guys win :laugh:

Will order some again if I still can this year otherwise I will get first thing next year.

u got the flovour packs?

jo1 wrote:

LSJ wrote:

vega5 wrote:

spike wrote:

And seen as LSJ cant get waxy maize,

LSJ, please say its not true!! I love the stuff!!!

Ok you guys win :laugh:

Will order some again if I still can this year otherwise I will get first thing next year.

u got the flovour packs?

I'm waiting for a third sample then I'll make up my mind, getting it on Friday.

(Discuss this under my thread - dont want to hi-jack Spike's thread)

no worries LSJ, this is all helping me with my decisions...

Sooo... it looks like i'll be placing a nice big order with you shortly for all the above

Keep this debate up, i like to see a good academic argument... especially while im meant to be working on my dissertation :blush:

And lastly, any opinions on the perfect dosages?

Oh and LSJ the site is looking awesome, all the info there and easy to understand...

Just wondering how necessary it is to use the amino stack, l-glutamine and BCAA's combined? Is that not a bit of an overlap or would there be added benefits?

EFA before bed, because I read EFA slow down a abortions on Protein = keeps you anabolic .

I am pretty much firm believer taking anything before bed is better.

My opinions:

1.
Whey
Take whenever you need to get in extra protein to reach desired macros and calories and cant stuff this in to a full stomach or out of an empty wallet

2.
Liquid carb source
For reasons above (example waxy maize), but only if you know how to keep the total GI of the meal down.

3. EFA's
Any essential fat source will do if not fully provided for in your diet already.

4.
Creatine
Daily with post workout drink. Over 5g I add into my intra-workout shake. Off cycle. monohydrate for the win...

5.
Glutamine, or branch chains...
Depending if you feel you are deficient in one of these amino acids. Protein is protein and additional always helps. Will not influence gains dramatically but can't hurt to add in if you have the cash to spare. Post workout or intraworkout.

Then.
Any other crap you want to try and have some money lying around. Wont have a profound effect on gains.

ok... you the biscuit inja :silly:

so? BCAA, glutamine or amino stack??? surely all is overkill, which would i be most likely lacking in and which is most important? Maybe the stack for an all round supply?

Since my diet has enough protein and my training is sufficiently fuelled, I don't need the amino stack.
I throw in Glutamine and BCAA's around workout because I have them lying around, not because I truly believe I need them.
Between them I would put glutamine above the BCAA's, simply because BCAA's are supplied in my sufficiently high whey doses pre and post workout, and because training drains my immune function, a biological system driven in part by glutamine.

Ok i got my lovely lucky packet from LSJ, its like christmas a day early...

One question, if i break my whey into 3 daily doses, before and after training obviously, then next best time? considering i have 4 egg whites with breakfast to start my day, whey maybe round 9?
(breakfast is at 7)

Also how much whey per serving (80kg male on test and equipoise)?

And finally, my post workout shake... I've got whey, waxy maize,dextrose and creatine powders to combine.... Any idea of ratios? Can i throw in the glutamine with that?

Thankyou all and a Merry Christmas Eve.

Use the servings whenever the protein content in your meal is lacking so that the amount of protein you deliver throughout the day remains fairly constant. No real best time (except post training). How much is also dependent on your total protein intake for the day. Divide it up reasonably equally between your meals and fill the gaps with the whey.

Yeah throw the Glutamine in with the post workout shake. I prefer to move the Waxy maize to pre-workout or intra workout and rely solely on dextrose etc for post workout carb.

Ok sweet, will try the waxy maize as intra workout and then the dex, whey, glutamine and creatine post workout.

Will be hit and miss for a couple days i guess while i work out the best mix for me, but i'll figure it out

oh and one last quick q, what is the weight value of 100ml whey? sorry my scale is broken