Insights into hCG and other PCT factors

A lot of people believe that hCG should be administered in small dosages of 500iu more frequenlty opposed to larger dosages of 1500iu.

What do you guys think. And what is the most effective approach to PCT.

Kraz looks like you have been doing some reading!
I try to keep up with whats happening in the land of endocrinology as it relates to HRT(hormone replacement therapy)
and I think your post needs to be addressed.
Firstly let me say that HCG (Pregnyl)while effective in restoring testicular size and a boost in testosterone is itself very suppressive and DOES cause an estrogen rebound!!!
I have seen many athletes develop gyno after finishing a box of Depotrone in 5 weeks and having no problem while on the test,only to develop gyno after taking a 5000iu shot of Pregnyl!
Dont get me wrong HCG is essential to PCT in most cases.The problem comes in with dosage.A dose of 1000iu should be the maximum given to a person per day -the reason being that dosages higher than this can cause permanent cell damage to the testes and problems related to fertility!I'm not saying there is not use for 5000iu Pregnyl but rather let an endocrinologist prescribe it to you (I know of fellow powerlifters who are sterile and the one thing they all have in common is 15000iu shots of Pregnyl regularly during and at the end of thier cycles)
Another thing that should be understood about pregnyl is that it is PART of PCT but is not used DURING PCT!!
What I mean here is that due to its suppressive nature use the Pregnyl during(if on a long 6wks+ cycle)and at the end of your cycle BEFORE PCT starts.To try put it simply you are using the Pregnyl to restore and maintain the size of your testes then you use Kessar and clomid to restore and amplify the signal from the hypothalamus that regulates the HTPA(hypothalamus testosterone pituitary axis)
its hard to advise people as to Pregnyl therapy without knowing the details and dosages of a cycle but its safe to say that even a high dosage cycle longer than 4-5 weeks the protocol of 250-300iu's 2 X week throughout the course starting from the 2nd week should be enough to maintain the size of the testes so come 2 weeks before the start of PCT increase the dosage to 500-750iu's 2 X week for those last 2 weeks and PCT should be success.her is an example of a cycle
with PCT included hope this gives you an idea of what I mean


Week

---

D/Ball

---

Depotrone --Winstrol---HCG

---

Kessar
--1

---

40mg/D

---

400mg
--2

---

30mg/D

---

400mg

---

250iu 2xWk
--3

---

30mg/D

---

400mg

---

250iu 2xWk
--4

---

400mg

---

250iu 2xWk
--5

---

400mg

---

50mg/D----250iu 2xWk
--6

---

400mg

---

50mg/D----250iu 2xWk
--7

---

400mg

---

50mg/D----250iu 2xWk
--8

---

50mg/D----500iu 2xWk
--9

---

500iu 2xWk
P-10

---

20mg/D
C-11

---

20mg/D
T-12

---

20mg/D

Conan,
Consider a long cycle and the cahoonas have reached rock-bottom, how much pregnyl at what dose would you recommend?
I thought 1 box (3X1500Iu) would suffice - 500Iu EOD for 3 weeks. I'm starting to doubt that idea and maybe should invest in another box and run it for 6 weeks?! - Wont your body get used to the drug over such a long period of time?

By-the-way, how do you store the devided doses?
Cheers

Jack, you can store it in your fridge, just adhere to the temp restrictions, between 2 and 8 deg.

Very interesting Conan, but this seems to contradict the Doc's advice. I am not saying you are correct and him not nor the other way around, but I would like to see his views on that as well.

A very intersting point on the gyno after HCG usuage at 5000iu dose, that would explain some instances I have heard about. I think the correct protocol for PCT is a huge debate as each argument has their merrits.

There are 2 main questions here for me:
1.) Should we do "preventative maintenance" through our cycles and thus lessen the "shock" of the HCG if only kept for PCT at a high dose?

2.) Should we rather restore our natural test production once at the end of a cycle and thus our bodies have a huge boost?

Each has their pro's and con's, but I think it would be intersting to know if your comment on infertility is really related to the high HCG dose as I don't fancy running on unleaded if you kow what I mean

This is gonna get interesting

Netro, can you buy sterile vials(please let it be so) to store the mix or do you just keep the loaded syringe?

Just keep it in your syringe at the dose you will use, basically if you gonna inject 250iu then keep it at that dose, not 500iu and use the same syringe twice. Not good practice then.

Netro you are so right when you say this subject is highly debatable.There are many endocrinologists and HRT specialists who are at loggerheads when it comes to this subject.Please dont get me wrong I'm not here to contradict or knock anyones point of view!Its just that I believe people should understand the implications of high dosages of this product as with all drugs they must be treated with respect after all your health is the reason for for using this product in the first place.
I also want to say that using low dose HCG through-out your course will hinder the shrinkage of the testes and it's a case of 'not letting the horse stray too far from the barn' -the further he goes the harder it it is to get him back in!(letting your balls skrink for too longer time means more effort and time to restore normal size and function)

Another thing Pregnyl (once mixed) can be stored in the fridge (between 2-8 degrees)for up to 30 days after that the Pregnyl will start to denature rapidly.Store the product in a sealed hygenic container as you would be suprised how much bacteria there is in your fridge (same goes for GH and IGF vials)

Agreed Conan. I have read so many articles around this and am still not 100% sure which is the best to use or to advise others on, so hopefully the outcome of this thread will determine that. Would a fair statement be that it also depends on the length and compounds of your course? For instance, a 6 week course of test will not cause as much shrinkage as a 12 week course and you may get away with HCG in a PCT after the 6 week course, but using it during a 12 week cycle would be a better option? Just some food for thought

Can you guys please read the info on this website and give me your opinion on what is said. I think this is a good general PCT for "beginners" in the game of steroids. www.steroid.com/offster.php
Can you also give me some advice: How long after the last shot cypionate (Half life of 12 days if research is correct) should I start PCT? I have 3 boxes clomid (30 x 50mg), 1 x 250 ug Ovidrel (HCG), 100 Clen and Kessar 20mg 1 x 30. Can you please recommend the best way of doing PCT with the products I have if I need to get more I will but would like to use what I have.

you're 100% on the money ! Not only is length of cycle and different compounds factors in PCT but also, age (younger guys normally recover quicker),length of previous cycle(how successful or not your PCT was and the amount of time off taken)
,your ability to tolerate PCT drugs(some people cant take clomid)
If you are a pro-bodybuilder that is a different story but for the rest of us who care about our health(i'm not saying the pro's dont care about thier health) and want to have kids there is one safety protocol that is essential to follow :- Time On(including PCT) = Time Off (allowing full recovery B4 next cycle)
Remember to plan your PCT WITH your cycle (try to buy all products together)failing to plan for PCT is planning to fail PCT

I will discuss Ovidrel shortly in a new thread elsewhere - see all the info needed there. PCT differs a lot from one individual to the next. It all depends on what AAS's were used, for how long and at what dosages. I have read up quite a bit lately on the subject, but one basic fact is that HCG should generally be used post-cycle. In male hypochonadism(and yeah, if you're on 'roids, that's what you end with!) the general dosage is 2000IU's per day 3 x per week(or atleast twice). This is continued for 3 weeks(in general). Now, here is where things start to differ.... There is a school of thought that provocates the use of single shot injections at dosage time, like in kickstarting your Leydig cells. Then there is the opposing group that feels "pulsing" LH levels with smaller, regular interval injections are better. The outcome of these two methods are still being looked at at which is the better.

When HCG is used, it has two effects - the first is by direct stimulation on the Leydig cells and the second, more potent effect is by increasing the LH level via your main hormonal axis. The LH peak then increases Leydig cell activity and testosterone output results. To me it makes more sense to give regular, more constant peaks in LH than just one, super peak. You see, LH secretion works in Circadian cycles of about 4 hour intervals. This means in peaking LH every 4 hours, will result in more constant testosterone output. Problem is, at what dose. As little as 100mg testosterone injection, can severely suppress your LH, but 100mg Deca again not that much. Then there are other drugs(anabolics) which in turn elevates LH(some orals). So, your cycles nett effect on LH level will determine how much HCG you should use.

Generally, as I use 800mg Test per week, I would take my first HCG at 5000IU's, especially if I come off a course longer that 10 weeks, on the first day. I would split this up in 5 smaller injections every 3-4 hours. My next shot will be 2500IUs 5 days later, then again 5 days later, then 1500IU's 5 later and the last 1500IU's 5 days later as the last shot. Now, this is very close to the medical dose for hypogonadism(2000IU's 2 - 3 x pweek). The other method is to use the HCG every day at 500IU's once, or 1000IU's every other day, but split in 2 x 500IU doses. This is then continued for three weeks. Now, do the maths - it equates close to the same total amount of HCG units per PCT cycle. Another method to use, is to use 500IU's every week or second week while on the AAS cycle - this also improves your initial repair during the PCT and helps prevent a too large suppression on the Leydig cells during the AAS cycle.

Botom line. To me it does not matter which method you use, as long as HCG is ALWAYS part of your PCT.
Obviously, as Conan said, the younger you are, the lower total dose of HCG you probably will need, but again the more Test you use in your cycle, the higher dosage you will need.
So how do you know how much. Play with your balls! Yeah, that's right. Feel them. You will have to experiment with the dose and see when your testicles start filling out again and start hanging "heavier" - then you are probably using enough. Another method is to see what your serum testosterone levels are. Titrate according to this response. As little as 1500IU's HCG per week can increase your test level by as much as 250-300%.

Now, let's discuss Clomiphene a bit. Clomid is a molecule with very light oestrogenic effect. It is a selective estrogen receptor modulater(SERM) and binds to the estrogen receptor and thus blocks the more potent estrogen to do the same. This is the way that it prevents gynaecomastia. The other effect it has, is to suppress the negative feedback loop in the estrogen production cascade, resulting in higher LH and FSH levels. The higher LH level stimulates the Leydig cells, producing more testosterone and the FSH stimulates the Sertoli cells, producing more sperm.

Nolvadex however does the same, but with greater effect on LH. If Nolvadex is compared to Clomid in effecacy, it is found to be as follows: 20mg Nolva = 150mg Clomid.
So, Clomid can be used post cycle, and the usual doses are about 100-150mg for first 10 days, then decreasing the dose by 50mg per day every 10 days until day 30. This is when Nolva is not used. With Nolva, Clomid is used 100mg for 5 days, followed by 50mg per day for the next 10 days.
Another way of using it in male infertility treatment in General Medicine, is to use it at 50mg per day for three months.

But there is another use for Clomid. Nolvadex has both estrogen blocking effects as well as estrogen stimulating effects. That's why it is called Selective in SERM. It blocks estrogen receptors in breast tissues, but has the estrogen stimulating effect on your blood lipid profile(decreases chlosterol) and it increases progesterone receptor numbers and sensitivity. This is why Nolva usually does not help much for gynae produced by progesteronic drugs like Deca. If you are prone to gynae while on Deca and likes, then Nolva should rather not be used, but Clomid should while you are on AAS cycle. Then using Clomid during the cycle at 50mg per day will decrease the testicular atrophy due to the Testosterone in the cycle and this will greatly assist in kind of "kickstarting" the testicular repair during PCT. Only during the PCT should Nolva then be used. Estrogen control during the AAS cycle can be achieved by low dose Arimidex(0,5mg per day) and if progesterone does give hassles in sensitive individuals, Bromocryptine(Parlodel) can be used at 2,5 mg per day during the AAS cycle.
As little as 50mg Clomid can increase your Testosterone levels. 150mg will push it up by 150%, thus being less effective per mg dosage than Nolva's effect.

Thanks for the very informative thread, Conan, Doctari and Netro. This deserves to be a sticky.

Hi. Ovidrel seem to have the better of me. From what I have read on the internet and this forum, the two seperate vials can be kept at room temperature until expiary date. Once mixed, the water solution injected to the powder vial, it must be kept in fridge between 2-8'C and be used within 30days. My problem:The advice is that Ovidrel be administered over a longer period at a lower dose which I understand, but how can I do this if I have to use it up within 30days and the Ovidrel therapy is lets say 60days long. Is the only solution to get a second set of solution and powder?