Planning PCT

Currently, I have decided what AAS I will run.
I will start with test cypionate 300mg.
Add in about 30-40mg anavar and switch to winstrol the last few weeks of cycle.

For PCT, can estrogen spike? I have read that mechanism is possible and many have reported gyno during pct phase. Although a PCT is not necessary, I plan on running one with minimal drugs.

I plan on keeping E2 in check with an AI. I prefer to not use a SERM and rather an AI as to allow maximal free test as opposed to letting testosterone aromatize. Of course I am consdiering using HCG after 1-2 weeks of the cycle.

Could anyone advise me on keeping E2 in check once the cycle has ended. Should I stop all ancillaries and anabolics for 1-2 weeks(depending on the estimated half life) before introducing any PCT drugs?

Length of your cycle?

10 weeks. Won't be too taxing on the pituitary, should recover fine without a PCT. I am concerned about controlling E2, and open to giving my balls a kickstart with HCG maybe 3x a week 500IU. What do you think?

You will not recover fine without a PCT, your using DHT twice. Whats your stats?

Will be 75kg 13% when I start the cycle at 5'6

Age?

23

Proposed PCT (starting 1 week after last injection?):

500 IU HCG eod for a week
Nolvadex 3 weeks 20mg

If this seems reasonable where does an AI fit in? The week between last injection and PCT as well as while taking HCG and then stop when nolva starts?

If anyone is interested in this topic. Strictly from a medical point of view what I have found is compounds like clomid etc are not essential for a PCT. Compounds like HCG and anastrozole seem to be very effective and less risk of sides.

My personal opinion, don’t try to change the wheel. Tried and tested many times and PCT has been shown to be needed.

Just from what I understand. Regardless of your dosage, 10 weeks time your body will shutdown due to the exogenous test. Yes you can recover without PCT, but it will take you a lot longer. I don’t know why you would want to subject yourself to a low test state for that long. Not only will you feel shut for a longer period, but during that low test phase of “natural recovery “ you will lose everything you’ve gained on the cycle and possibly even more.

Doing it that way basically cancels out that low dose cycle and you’re probably better of not doing a cycle at all. Without the PCT you’re basically wasting your own time.

MPhilosopher wrote: If anyone is interested in this topic. Strictly from a medical point of view what I have found is compounds like clomid etc are not essential for a PCT. Compounds like HCG and anastrozole seem to be very effective and less risk of sides.

Please explain in detail your findings.

I don't mean to criticize I just like asking questions to methods that maybe there is not a lot of research.

To maybe go into some more detail about what I said:

Compounds like HCG and anastrozole seem to work nicely - HCG to help the testicles come back online and allow pituitary to start sending signals with a smaller window of low T, and anastrozole to combat E2.
The benefit of anastrozole over other AIs and suicide AIs or SERMS, is at the direct mechanism of action. It is a lot more efficacious to prevent the conversion of T to E2, rather than allow the conversion and then block it at the receptor (à la SERM). I mean medically speaking a PCT is not essential and tbh I do not care what anyone says, the quickest way would be with no PCT and force the pituitary to send those signals. Now, maybe a PCT is beneficial to ease that process... gains being kept vs not.... I would like to see some data on that, and I am open to learning more. But overall, I do not understand why people recommend exemastane or other AIs over anastrozole - I do not think the logic of "it worked for me so it is the best method" is good enough reason. It is probably individual, but anastrozole is easiest to dose and has less reported sides and is generally a very safe compound for majority of people. I have never experienced steroids etc so again, not being the voice of reason or a cocky c*nt. Just like bringing a more agnostic view to such topics. I really do question some recommendations, as I would prefer an argument not based on experience. (Not that people's experience isn't valuable, I think there has to be a better argument holistically)

Let me know what you think

EDIT: Maybe compounds like tamoxifen could be beneficial for very heavy cycles... Again, nothing set in stone but for smaller/reasonable cycles I can't see an argument for HCG/arimidex not being enough.

No PCT, the data shows recovery at a year.. A SERM is beneficial and speeds up that time. Using Arimidex is an option, but again no need to reinvent the wheel. You not forcing anything but not using PCT.. It's like drinking and you dehydrated and you telling your body to get better on it's own, but things would speed up if you just had some water.

Fair enough. With the wheel analogy the only argument I have is that what is established is not "the wheel", it is a lot of broscience and anecdotal evidence.

Just looks like you made up your mind already. So when you do run your cycle and decide to not do PCT, don’t come running here asking for help when you feel like crap 10 weeks after your last shot, just do a PCT as that’s what will be recommended to you. Then another 6 weeks later please do start a thread with your experience vs your current opinion.

I never said I was against PCT. I am not really a fan of the ideology "either I am wrong or I am right". I am merely encouraging some scientific conversation. "Just looks like you made up your mind already"... alright but no that isn't accurate.

It is good to always be a skeptic and that includes questioning your own methods in life. This is a huge disconnect in the fitness world. If you would like, rather share solid data on why what you say is true.

I questioned a method and you seem defensive. Why not question yourself and help reinforce or improve current methodology.

Do bloods before cycle and (after cycle without pcts here) and come post results here.
Pcts are a big part of your cycle.

The forum (and many others) are full of bloods and tests proving PCT works. To suddenly come and decide otherwise with no proof is not a discussion but more an Opinion. There really is no need to question pct at all until some new PED comes along which requires a different form of pct

Everything you can think of relating to PCT has been discussed here countless times over the 13 years this forum has been around.

One of the forum's first members who put together our PCT protocol is a doctor specialising in this field who works with professional athletes and many IFBB level bodybuilders. He has personally conducted clinical research in the the field of post cycle recovery and knows everybody who is anybody in IFBB SA.

I have spent ridiculous amounts of hours researching clinical studies relating to HPTA recovery related drugs and recovery from anabolic steroid related HPTA suppression since I joined this forum 13 years ago. There is in fact a lot of published research available. There is no valid argument that there is any average to intermiate steroid cycle where some form of PCT will not be greatly beneficial to recovery.

Normal recovery of natural T production and spermatogenesis can take from several months to even a couple of years without any intervention after very long cycles. Some guys never recover completely. Do you want to take that risk?

You won't get a positive response to encouraging 'some scientific conversation' based on whatever data you have bookmarked from google over the last few weeks. We don't owe it to you to convince you of anything.

Regarding your broscience and anecdotal evidence comment, we are not all meathead idiots who base our protocols on heresay broscience, and I'm sure I can speak for the more experienced members and say that educating a cocky noob (who based on their posts assumes we don't know what we are doing) is not high on our agenda.

Alright I guess the we fundamentally disagree. I did not say PCT was useless. I am simply questioning the use of additional drugs - the aim should be to use the minimal ancillaries etc. Also the fact that this is what IFBB pros follow or genetic freaks etc is not enough literature. I did not attack anyone's ideas I am simply looking for data that PCT is essential, as biologically I am claiming it isn't necessary. It was a simple claim.

Poephol

I won't apologize for questioning, but I will apologize for it being inflammatory. I quite like this forum and do not mean to be a dickhead.

You posted a comment about HCG and Arimidex for PCT. That solution works. However.... This protocol should be monitored by a specialist, not a GP, someone that knows exactly when to switch things up. Most Drs do not know how to administer aromatising inhibitors to even treat estrogen on cycle, and they not really expected to know unless they have further trained and took up interest in fertility treatment or testosterone rehabilitation.. The protocols that are discussed on this site are spot on, they as accurate as they come and if you take the time to go through the posts you will see Drs, biochemistry gurus, well experienced and vast learned members discuss this topic in so many different ways. Studies presented, blood results posted, side effects, positive effects, adjustments for individual requirements. But honestly do yourself a favor and ready through the material on the site. You will also find when working with an endo or the likes you going to be coughing up cash for consultations and doing extensive blood tests. The protocols on the site discusses a minimum required recovery and then you head off and do bloods and then you see if you need to continue treatment. I have so many blood tests that i have a flip file full of bloods.. PCT 3 allowed me to father a child after nearly 17 years continued use. Then after that recovery I used very mild cycles and my total test was sitting at 120 or somewhere around there with FSH at 0.1, I was as poked as can be. And HGH was not making a dent in recovery.. So now I'm on a very aggressive PCT and my endo said we can do this in 3 months (yes 3 months of treatment) and maybe it goes on longer, I'm not sure. But I can guarantee you I would not recovery even 5 years by letting my body try do it by itself.. This protocol is over the top HCG and Arimidex that we have a year data as to my levels at X dose and it's been moved to Y for the HCG dose being used. And again that follows up with more bloods as this is scientific like you stated and being done be the master of bloods.

To simplify why you need a SERM and not only HCG and an AI:

HCG directly stimulates LH receptors in the testes' leydig cells to produce testosterone. Great.

Arimidex takes estrogen out of the equation so there is no negative feedback on the hypothalamus and pituitary to prevent LH and FSH production to kickstart natural testosterone and spermatogenesis. Great. So all sounds fine? No.

After a 10 week cycle even with low T and E, your hypothalamus and pituitary don't just start working like they did pre-cycle. The ultra high level of androgens basically causes down regulation of the receptors (GnRH receptors) in the pituitary that receive the signal to produce LH (for testosterone) and FSH (sperm production).

It takes months or more for your LH and FSH level to recover to pre-cycle levels. So even if your testes are all good to go they still won't get the signal to make a 'normal' amount of testosterone.

To re-sensitise and up regulate the necessary receptors in the hypothalamus and pituitary gland we take a SERM. Nolvadex or Clomid. Nolvadex is more effective (as far as side effect free doses go) at stimulating LH production and clomid is more effective at stimulating FSH production, but both do the job. They can take months off the time needed to kickstart your LH and FSH production to normal mode.

Whether you're on 300mg T/week or 1000mg T/week for 10 weeks your HPTA is shut down close to 100% and will take much longer to recover without a SERM.

MPhilosopher wrote: I mean medically speaking a PCT is not essential and tbh I do not care what anyone says, the quickest way would be with no PCT and force the pituitary to send those signals.
.

This is your big problem. At 23 with no real experience and you come and say this... this is the type of stuff that made me realize that you’re a stubborn doos.

I personally am no expert even though I’ve done tons of research and a few cycles under my belt. I even assist people with cycles not because it’s my job, but because they trust me based on me giving them info and requesting they research it for themselves before we proceeding. I’ve seen plenty people get up to shit because they have the same stupid attitude that you’re presenting. When shit hits the fan they come crying for assistance because the guy who told them can’t help anymore.

I have no personal bonds or friendships with anyone on this forum, however I have seen enough to know that the majority here don’t thumb suck and genuinely want to help people. When you come around posting crap like this, other inexperienced young people read your BS not knowing any better and follow it because they’re too lazy to do any more research and just go with the first link that popped up after googling PCT. this in turn has a negative effect on everyone who uses responsibly and just makes it harder for us as there is a bigger crack down on products/labs once the next laaitie who uses your kak commits suicide because of depression during his low test period after not doing a proper PCT.

At your age you should be grabbing advice from people like oupa, muscle addict and 00pump. These guys have your entire life’s worth of experience of not just bro science but actual blood tests and trials in the sport/industry. Being a cocky little brat is going to fuck up your body and life and that is the last thing anyone on this site wants.