Fasted training

Hi guys

So as you know I am still on aiming to get below the 10%bf mark despite my herniated disk and recent infection. As I have stopped the gear and am currently altering my training schedule (dropped heavy weights and low sets in favour of higher volume training at light/moderate weights), I was wondering if there would be any benefit in doing my weight training in a fasted state, followed by 20 mins of cardio.

Since, I am no longer pushing heavy weights (and basically need to limit my leg and back workouts) I am also switching my carb cycling diet to one of running a constant deficit of 20% of my current tdee which equates to 2500 calories. So I was thinking of doing the following.

06:00 - Weight training in fasted state for 40 mins, followed by 20 mins of light cardio. (BCAA's will be used intra-workout)

07:30 - First meal of 100g oats (raw weight) and 36g of whey protein (60g carbs, 50g protein, 3g fat) and 50g of strawberries to replenish glycogen. 500ml water

10:00 - two cans of tuna and 4 brown rice cakes (50g protein and 60g carbs) and 500ml water

13:00 - 170g chicken breast (cooked weight) and 220g brown rice (50g protein and 60g carbs) 500ml water

16:00 - 6 extra large eggs and 100g spinach (45g protein, 32g fat) 500ml water

19:00 415g Sardines and 100g spinach (48g protein and 30g fat)500ml water

21:00 Protein blend shake and 15ml flax seed oil. (500mll water)

I will be incorporating clenbuterol and possibly yohimbimine in conjunction with this diet.

How do you eat 415g of sardines... I've just gone green :sick: thinking about it.

Good luck Bro

Ian79 wrote: How do you eat 415g of sardines... I've just gone green :sick: thinking about it.

Good luck Bro

hahaha..that was a typo mate

its 215g and its a mission. The only way I do it is by downing every gulf with sugar free ginger beer to mask the taste!!!!

ha ha surely theres an easier way to get down 40grams of protein

I wonder if Phil Heath trains fasted..

MRfeathers wrote: ha ha surely theres an easier way to get down 40grams of protein

there may well be mate...but the combination of protein and efa's suits me perfectly as does the fact that its got a ring opener on the can...

yes im a lazy bugger!!!

ha ha fair enough :lol: sounds better than the sardine and cottage cheese smoothies ive seen before :sick:

CHAPEL wrote: I wonder if Phil Heath trains fasted..

explain chapel?

Hey GSP,

I only see an advantage to training fasted if it is cardio, and even that needs to be done at moderate intensity to spare muscle fibre. Resistance training should be preceded by carbs at the very least (unless you are on keto). You need to replenish glycogen to maximize efforts with the weights, otherwise you are going to be sapped and not able to lift as much. (not to mention the possibility of damage) Rather consume food (especially carbs!) around your resistance training session for this reason, even if it means downsizing meals proportionally for the rest of the day. That's how a cut should be bro, priorities are keeping muscle and keeping yourself strong in the gym.

Quickly looking at your diet:
1) Strawberries won't do much for glycogen replenishment (Fructose just is like that). Rather go for glucose polymers.
2) Why rice cakes? Something to put the tuna onto for convenience? If not rather go with lettuce and make a salad. Raw leaves consume calories to digest (aka negative cals).
3) Sardines are delicious! :woohoo: Add tobasco sauce - increases body heat slightly as well.

MRfeathers wrote: ha ha fair enough :lol: sounds better than the sardine and cottage cheese smoothies ive seen before :sick:

Sounds a bit like that hake-paste you can buy these days. Although imagining fish-flavour in a smoothy is horrendous...

Furk wrote: Hey GSP,

I only see an advantage to training fasted if it is cardio, and even that needs to be done at moderate intensity to spare muscle fibre. Resistance training should be preceded by carbs at the very least (unless you are on keto). You need to replenish glycogen to maximize efforts with the weights, otherwise you are going to be sapped and not able to lift as much. (not to mention the possibility of damage) Rather consume food (especially carbs!) around your resistance training session for this reason, even if it means downsizing meals proportionally for the rest of the day. That's how a cut should be bro, priorities are keeping muscle and keeping yourself strong in the gym.

Quickly looking at your diet:
1) Strawberries won't do much for glycogen replenishment (Fructose just is like that). Rather go for glucose polymers.
2) Why rice cakes? Something to put the tuna onto for convenience? If not rather go with lettuce and make a salad. Raw leaves consume calories to digest (aka negative cals).
3) Sardines are delicious! :woohoo: Add tobasco sauce - increases body heat slightly as well.

cheers for the advice furk..much much appreciated.

I want to reiterate that the training regime has changed somewhat as, due to my injuries, pushing big weights is currently not an option anymore and I am thus lifting at around 50% of my 1RM depending on which muscle group is being trained. As such, my training is geared along high volumes and high repetitions. Also, its probably worth mentioning that I am on day 14 after my last test e shot and am still running var at around 40mg/day which means that Ill probably remain in a muslce-sparing state for three more weeks before pct and this time frame will also mark the conclusion of my cutting diet as I always run miantence or 10% above-maintenance during pct. Rice cakes is being used as it fulfills a macro-nutrient requirement and just happens to be pretty decent with two cans of tuna. A salad would be great, but then it would mean i need to consume the equivalent of 50g carbs in my other two meals which I am not too keen on doing.

As for the fructose, was always under the impression that this is king for glycogen replenishment.

Ok got the bigger picture now GSP.

Due to injury, you should maybe eliminate certain lifts that would place undesirable stress on it, but I don't think you need to lower weights on lifts that are not affected. If you want to go lighter and increase volume that would be fine, ja sure, but as a method of surprising your body. So unless you are totally set on changing your regime, consider eliminating problematic lifts and find another way to stimulate the muscles.

It's easy to automatically think that because fruit are high GI (well some at least) that they refill glycogen quickly. It's not the case however, and glucose and sucrose are the best in this aspect.

Furk wrote: Ok got the bigger picture now GSP.

Due to injury, you should maybe eliminate certain lifts that would place undesirable stress on it, but I don't think you need to lower weights on lifts that are not affected. If you want to go lighter and increase volume that would be fine, ja sure, but as a method of surprising your body. So unless you are totally set on changing your regime, consider eliminating problematic lifts and find another way to stimulate the muscles.

It's easy to automatically think that because fruit are high GI (well some at least) that they refill glycogen quickly. It's not the case however, and glucose and sucrose are the best in this aspect.

apologies mate, I think my confusion in terms of fruit consumption comes from keto days. Fructose is apparently brilliant at restoring liver glycogen (which also gets depleted during the no-carb days) allowing the more complex carbohydrates to directly be transported to the muscles. Ill add some dextrose/vitargo to my post workout meal.

GSP wrote:

CHAPEL wrote: I wonder if Phil Heath trains fasted..

explain chapel?

imo stick to fasted cardio, not fasted weights. I did it for a while following Martin Berkhan's style of IF and although I noticed initial strength increase over training symptoms set in fast [VonD reserve your beliefs that over training does not exist because Kai says so], sleep was becoming an issue as well as energy, gains/losses stagnated, over all it just wasn't lekker after a a while. I did enjoy it for a while though, don't get me wrong. I just think the cons out weigh the pros.

Plus would any top level BB train fasted.. Even though we aren't, its the the thought that counts.

I would not train fasted, your body would have burnt through most of your calories while weight training- leaving you in a fasted state to do cardio afterward!
Sounds perfect.

I would not train fasted, your body would have burnt through most of your calories while weight training- leaving you in a fasted state to do cardio afterward!
Sounds perfect.

bro science.

CHAPEL wrote:

GSP wrote:

CHAPEL wrote: I wonder if Phil Heath trains fasted..

explain chapel?

imo stick to fasted cardio, not fasted weights. I did it for a while following Martin Berkhan's style of IF and although I noticed initial strength increase over training symptoms set in fast [VonD reserve your beliefs that over training does not exist because Kai says so], sleep was becoming an issue as well as energy, gains/losses stagnated, over all it just wasn't lekker after a a while. I did enjoy it for a while though, don't get me wrong. I just think the cons out weigh the pros.

Plus would any top level BB train fasted.. Even though we aren't, its the the thought that counts.

no for sure mate and appreciate the feedback as always. As mentioned though, this is just up until the beginning of pct which will start in 22 days time, so a final fat burning spurt if you will.

CHAPEL wrote: bro science.

No just my personal experience

How do you know you have burnt up enough calories to be in a fasted state?

pr0gr3s1v3 wrote: I would not train fasted, your body would have burnt through most of your calories while weight training- leaving you in a fasted state to do cardio afterward!
Sounds perfect.

What?

By weight training you are depleting muscle stored glycogen. This is the reason why it is preffered to do cardio after weights - cause you need the power to pick the heavy stuff up. No glycogen mean's your body is going to start searching for another energy source. And since ATP is used up and you are in a calorie deficient what else is left? Exactly. So I see no advantage on doing weights preceding cardio fasted if you are already planning macros and cutting calories.

CHAPEL wrote: How do you know you have burnt up enough calories to be in a fasted state?

I am sensitive to my blood sugar levels and can feel it once my energy is depleted! In reality there is also no bro sience behind it, why do you think people drink dextrose after gym? Blood sugar levels are low? Good enough reason to believe that you are in a good enough fasted state? Yes I think so! This will obviously be directly proportional to your metabolism and the amount of food consumed, hence me saying personal experience. stuff like oats really does not take long to pass through your system making the energy available as you train, and if your diet is correct you will have just enough or a bit more to finish your workout- well that's the idea atleast.

Bro sience is people who believe they should not consume carbs before bed:p

Furk wrote:

pr0gr3s1v3 wrote: I would not train fasted, your body would have burnt through most of your calories while weight training- leaving you in a fasted state to do cardio afterward!
Sounds perfect.

What?

By weight training you are depleting muscle stored glycogen. This is the reason why it is preffered to do cardio after weights - cause you need the power to pick the heavy stuff up. No glycogen mean's your body is going to start searching for another energy source. And since ATP is used up and you are in a calorie deficient what else is left? Exactly. So I see no advantage on doing weights preceding cardio fasted if you are already planning macros and cutting calories.

Lol bud, read my post again, we are saying the same thing:lol:

pr0gr3s1v3 wrote:

CHAPEL wrote: How do you know you have burnt up enough calories to be in a fasted state?

I am sensitive to my blood sugar levels and can feel it once my energy is depleted! I am sure most people can feel when they are tired, however this still doesn't tell me that you "have burnt through most" of your calories your words. In reality there is also no bro sience behind it, why do you think people drink dextrose after gym? Blood sugar levels are low? hmmm.. no unfortunately that is not entirely correct its to shuttle protein to your muscles pretty fast, layman's terms, i actually wrote quite a nice thing about it somewhere on this forum Good enough reason to believe that you are in a good enough fasted state? once again, this is pure here say and guesswork Yes I think so! This will obviously be directly proportional to your metabolism and the amount of food consumed, hence me saying personal experience over here you state it is directly proportional to food consumed, which must mean to adequately figure out that you "burnt through most of your calories" you would have to have calculated the amount ingested and as a result, the amount expended? yes. Which means your idea of knowing when you are "burnt" out is not true as you yourself said it is based on how much you eat and how much you have expended, a number you have not worked out but rather base on being sensitive to blood sugar levels. stuff like oats really does not take long to pass through your system making the energy available as you train, and if your diet is correct you will have just enough or a bit more to finish your workout- well that's the idea atleast This is once again bro science, your body can store up too 400gr of carbohydrates in your muscles not to mention your liver which can hold an additional 100gr, which is essentially 2000kcal, and even more in more muscular individuals. No, I'm sorry, there is no way of "guessing" you are in a fasted state after having done weights.

Bro sience is people who believe they should not consume carbs before bed:p yes and unfortunately so is your theory

Of course others may disagree with me, DJ if you see this let me know. Thanks.

pr0gr3s1v3 wrote: Lol bud, read my post again, we are saying the same thing:lol:

medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/glycogen

medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/blood+sugar

No, very different.


EDIT: I think we owe you an apology for hi-jacking this thread GSP.