EQ/PROP/WINNY/TREN Cycle help

Hey guys

First off I want to say a very happy new year to you all and I hope that 2009 is full of new gains

Well that’s exactly how I want to start the New Year, therefore I have decided to do my 2nd cycle (came off my last cycle in September’ 08 so I have had enough recovery time)

On my previous cycle I put on some mass about 20 kg going from 64kg to a hefty 84 kg, eating about 3500 Calories a day and training 5 days a week.Im only 1.73 m and my bf% also went sky high to about 21%!Waist got out of hand going from 31’ to about 36’!
I used those machines at the gym to measure bf% but I doubt that is correct!

Anyways I dieted end of September till now and im at a lean 73kg with about 13-14% bf if I have to estimate.I vowed never to do another mass cycle again and also not to eat 3500 calories ever again lol

My top 4 abs are showing so there is still a bit more work to go therefore decided to structure this cycle to pack on lean mass and possibly loss 3-5 % bf and get to about 78-80 kg at about 9-10% bf.

So here goes this is what my cycle looks like :

EQ PROP WINNY Tabs Wildcard *TREN ENAN CLOMID KESSAR
Week1 700 mg 100 mg EOD - 300 mg - As needed
Week2 700 mg 100 mg EOD - 300 mg - As needed
Week3 350 mg 100 mg EOD - 150 mg - As needed
Week4 350 mg - - 150 mg - As needed
Week5 350 mg - 50mg EOD 150 mg - As needed
Week6 350 mg - 50mg EOD 150 mg - As needed
Week7 350 mg - 50mg EOD 150 mg - As needed
Week8 350 mg - 50mg EOD 150 mg - As needed
Week9 NOTHING
Week10 NOTHING
Week11 Start
Week12 Start

Basically EQ is frontloaded at 700 mg for first 2 weeks and a bottle of PROP should last about 3 weeks if shot 3 x per week for the first 3 weeks.
The WINNY is self explanatory, just last time I got bad dry joints from this compound!
Im not sure about the TREN ENAN , it’s a wildcard and I need advice on whether to run with it as is or leave it for the next cycle.I need help with the clomid aswell.
ALSO should I get another bottle of PROP for week 9,10,11 as the long acting EQ will start to wear off and the prop will reduce my recovery time OR should I get a bottle of TREN ACE instead of another bottle of PROP?

ANY help is much appreciated.

Thanks guys.

why dont u do this instead dude, run test enanthate for 8 weeks and eq for 10weeks and then tren acetate,test prop and winstrol for 3-4 weeks with the equi and tren and winstrol over lapping one another... so week 1 - 10 350mg equi. week 1-8 test enanthate 375mg per week and then from week 8 -12 run tren acetate winstrol and test prop. should and some proviron if u like...and no kessar with tren champ...rather use letro..

Thanks DJEasye, but i do not want to blow up and test e will make me do that.I made it very obvious i was ON something and people at work were speculating lol

well dude then what u can do is run proviron or something like that to keep your water retention low,also alot of people finding keeping your diet clean during a cycle with big amounts of test also helps with the water retention...

Thanks man, but i've decided to run prop week 1-3 and then prop week 8-11 to help with recovery.Is week 8-11 correct?EQ will be from week 1-8 and winny week 4-8.

What would my pct look like? Clomid 100mg 5 days then 5 days off then 50 mg right?

Thanks man, but i've decided to run prop week 1-3 and then prop week 8-11 to help with recovery??? so u running prop week 1-11 then?

Your post is confusing to read. Make your cycle more clear. Your PCT is bogus too, why use clomid when you can use kessar?

Sorry guys I was in a rush to type that above post..

Ok here goes again

Week 1-8 Eq as per dosages in first post.
Week 1-3 Prop EOD per dosages in first post
WInny as per first post
Week 9-11 Prop 100mg EOD (to help recover faster,but im not sure if I start in the right week as EQ will prob still be active in my system?)

Could you please advise me of a proper PCT to follow this course whether it be kessar,clomid,pregnyl or a combination.

so u are not running prop from week 3-9? thats 6 weeks without test in your system? thats not a clever cycle design. if u gonna do that then do first 5-6 weeks test enanthate, u need test in your system whilst on equi..6 weeks of testen wont make u look that bloated if u keep it short and keep your diet clean.you will find when u do test prop for the last 6 weeks your will drop that test bloat,if not just add in proviron with that last couple weeks to drop some water and harden up...test should be the base of any cycle champ..

Batista wrote:

Sorry guys I was in a rush to type that above post..

Ok here goes again

Week 1-8 Eq as per dosages in first post.
Week 1-3 Prop EOD per dosages in first post
WInny as per first post
Week 9-11 Prop 100mg EOD (to help recover faster,but im not sure if I start in the right week as EQ will prob still be active in my system?)

Could you please advise me of a proper PCT to follow this course whether it be kessar,clomid,pregnyl or a combination.

1. The prop at the beginning of the cycle serves to kickstart the cycle till longer esters kick in, I would try run it for 4 weeks, not three.

2. I would run test all through the cycle with your EQ like DJ squirrel man said. Test E, Test C, or some Sust. If you are worried about getting fat THEN KEEP YOUR DIET CLEAN. If your are worried about bloat RUN AN AI!

3. Running prop at the end of your cycle will do shit squat to help you recover faster!!! I don't know who put this information into your head. The reason guys run prop at the end of a cycle so that test levels remain high while the longer esters clear out. It stops you feeling crapper and stuff as you make the transition to PCT. When you stop your cycle this way you get one big crash at the end instead of a gradual taper.

4. I dunno if you plan to run winnie all cycle but if this is what you wanna do keep in mind the liver toxicity.

5. PCT = 2 weeks of HCG at 250/500i.u. ED + 20mg kessar. Then an additional 4-6 weeks of 20mg kessar.

@Inja,
Think the wording was a little incorrect or misunderstood by you. Swapping to shorter esters does not allow faster recovery alone, but it does allow you to start your PCT sooner and thus the statement of recovering your natural hormone production sooner. The longer esters would have levels that declined enough for PCT to start.

Short esters have been put in place to keep test levels up while the body metabolizes the enanthate and equi esters, if Batista ran long esters all teh way through he would only be able to start his PCT around 2 - 3 weeks after last shot. With the last 3-4 weeks of short esters he can start his PCT 3 days after last shot, this is irrelevant of PCT duration as he would have gained about 2 1/2 weeks on the start time of his PCT.

I hope this explains the logic behind switching esters.

IMO,
I would not start with prop, rather group your long and short esters. Start with long esters and use the AI or proviron to control water, diet in line of course. At the back end move to short esters and lean compounds like tren and masteron and winny. I would go for oral winny at the back as cortisol levels will be on the rise and you can get the most out of those last few weeks or even proviron.

If you use a 19-Nor at the back end then Clomid is preferred, if not Kessar is good.

For this stack to look good I would do the following:

Week 1 - 8: Inject 2 x P/week
D-Bol Front load (Or any other oral of choice)
Equi
Test Enathate
Proviron (If needed)
Kessar on hand

Week 9 - 12: Inject EOD
Test Prop
Tren Ace
Proviron

PCT:
Clomid
Letrozole
Tribulus

netro just a question dude,why no HCG in the pct?

@ netro thanks bud for explaining to inja.much appreciated:) and thanks for the cycle help. U can ignore the mail i sent you as i asked u the same question.lookin forward to startin my cycle:)

djeasye wrote:

netro just a question dude,why no HCG in the pct?

Sorry bud, that one slipped through the net, HCG has to be there..... my bad

Netro wrote:

@Inja,
Think the wording was a little incorrect or misunderstood by you.

Originally he said he was doing it to help him recover faster, which is a confusing statement, but I also mistakenly thought he was running the long esters concurrently with the short at the end of the cycle to keep levels up while tapering, my bad

If you use a 19-Nor at the back end then Clomid is preferred, if not Kessar is good.

Here you logic eludes me? Yes clomid can help with lowering prolactin levels, but indeed so can kessar, and is just as good as doing this. In addition kessar is far more potent at bringing back test levels, and much less of the stuff is needed. So why would you recommend clomid above kessar for PCT following a cycle using 19-nor compounds?

Clomid
Letrozole
Tribulus

I see you've added HCG, but again, I don't understand the use of clomid over kessar.

In addition, why use tribulus? There is no real published evidence as far as I know showing any notable increases in human testosterone levels following supplementation with tribulus. The stuff is just a waste of money.

I'll leave you to comment on the Kessar/Clomid with 19NOR issue! :laugh:

Another good cycle lost in the sea of posts! Why dont you stretch the EQ to > 12 weeks and post it on the sample cycles?

Hey bro, we're all on a forum to learn.
I haven't seen any data suggesting the use of clomid over kessar, so I would love for anyone post some up.

there is info posted up on this forum saying that kessar and 19nor substances such as tren and deca are not a good idea...

ok this is a direct quote from Conan on one of the previous strings...

because both the nandrolones and trenbolones have an affinity for progesterone receptors it is always better to use Clomid and not Kessar during PCT with these 2 products,in fact Kessar can make progesterone based gyno worse ,by acting as an estrogen to block the estrogen receptors it fools the body into thinking it has estrogen present and you need to have estrogen present for progeterone based gyno ,my advice would be to stop the Kessar and Clomid now and sort out the gyno problem with Arimadex and only then carry on PCT with only the Clomid.

@Inja,
This debate was discussed intensively by 2 other moderators concerning 19-Nors and Kessar. You can have a look under the PCT thread and our resident GP at that time explained it well. From my side, I have read numerous posts and studies concerning the effects of Kessar when it has been used with a 19-Nor. My 2 main concerns are that it can amplify the progesterone sides associated with a 19-Nor and that it can make the compound less effective.

As a rule of thumb I advise that the 2 should not be combined, rather opt for Clomid in a PCT scenario. If you have high prolactin levels I suggest parlodel and with Letrozole as part of the PCT as well. Letro can also be used on cycle if needed.

If there are no 19-Nors or you stop then long enough before your PCT I would have no issue with using Kessar as your statement about much less is needed I agree with.

In this case the member is not going with Tren and then Kessar as a PCT compound would be preferred. Tribulus is an personal addition as it enhances sperm count and just there as a nice to have, PCT for me is to restore natural hormone production as fast and as best as possible, the trib has a small impact, but every little bit helps IMO.

The PCT would consist out of the following compounds IMO:
HCG
Kessar (as Tren is not being used)
Tribulus (Optional)
Letrozole

Thanks DJ, you slipped your reply just before mine.

djeasye wrote:

in fact Kessar can make progesterone based gyno worse ,by acting as an estrogen to block the estrogen receptors it fools the body into thinking it has estrogen present and you need to have estrogen present for progeterone based gyno

Ok guys, my only concern with this thread is using clomid over kessar. I will read the thread Netro is pointing me to later today because I have to go do some lab work now, but first let me make a point.

Kessar and clomid both bind the estrogen receptor (kessar just does it better) but in doing so the do not provide massive estrogen like stimulus. In fact they serve to prevent estrogen stimulus by blocking the estrogen recepter from binding estrogen. This 'blocking' actually prevents estrogen effects from occuring in the body and thus fools the body into thinking there is NO estrogen in the body (not the other way around). To comment on the quoted statement above this can actually improve progesterone related gyno by removing the effects of estrogen in the body. In fact, as I state in my PCT thread kessar is anti-estrogenic in the hypothalamus and pituitary while clomid is only anti-estrogenic in the hypothalamus and in fact data shows it to be mildly estrogenic in the pituitary. Therefor if estrogenic effects were the concern then kessar is still preferred over clomid.

P.S. It is this anti-estrogenic effect that is wanted for PCT, because when the body thinks there is no estrogen (and concurrently no testosterone) it stimulates LH production to make more estrogen (and thus first more testosterone).

Netro wrote:

@Inja,
From my side, I have read numerous posts and studies concerning the effects of Kessar when it has been used with a 19-Nor.

Could you please post up some of these studies implicating the negative effects of tamoxifen with 19-nor compounds. In addition do you have studies that show that these effects are not present when using clomiphene with 19-nor.
Keep in mind we are talking in the context of using either clomid or kessar for PCT.

Thanks bro.

P.S. I agree with the use of letro and parlodel. Your choice for tribulus is I guess based on personal experience, and of course the paranoia that sets into all of us post cycle . I cannot fault you for that. its just not worth the money in my eyes, but I will not fault anyone for using it.

Ok, so first thing I checked was the sticky. In that Doctari talks about the ability of tamoxifen to upregulate progesterone receptor mRNA.

It blocks estrogen receptors in breast tissues, but has the estrogen stimulating effect on your blood lipid profile(decreases chlosterol) and it increases progesterone receptor numbers and sensitivity. This is why Nolva usually does not help much for gynae produced by progesteronic drugs like Deca. If you are prone to gynae while on Deca and likes, then Nolva should rather not be used, but Clomid should while you are on AAS cycle. Then using Clomid during the cycle at 50mg per day will decrease the testicular atrophy due to the Testosterone in the cycle and this will greatly assist in kind of "kickstarting" the testicular repair during PCT. Only during the PCT should Nolva then be used.

However although he notes this as a concern during PCT he still recommends kessar for PCT (because as I said kessar is more effective than clomid).
Although he does have cause for concern I must tell you guys that all SERMs appear to upregulate progesterone receptor expression to some degree, although I seriously doubt the ability of these two compounds (kessar or clomid) to affect progesterone related side effects. There are studies both supporting and arguing against the ability of these SERMs to affect progesterone receptor expression, partly because of the limited affect they have, and secondly because they have different effects in different tissues. Papers supporting this claim generally come from breast cancer cells.
Futhermore I would actually expect both clomid and kessar to inhibit progesterone related gyno, simply because progesterone related gyno in fact requires the presence of estrogen, and both these compounds inhibit estrogenic effects in the body. Of course kessar would be better than clomid at doing this.
With that said, the effect of SERMs on progesterone receptor expression, or the effect they have on progesterone related gyno do not affect the choice of whether to use clomid or kessar for PCT. Thus this far kessar still remains the most cost effective and the better choice.



The second thread I found was one where Netro made a very good post (Lets do it properly). Big ups to Netro for some very good and very accurate information here! There is no doubt why you are a mod. The paragraph I disagree slightly with is this one.

Kessar should not be used here due to the 19-Nor and it will make the 19-Nor less effective. Arimidex will not help if the gyno is progesterone based from the 19-Nor, so Letrozole or a better choice, Parlodel would be better suited. If you still get estrogen based gyno you can use Arimidex to keep that under control. This is way it is very important to know your body and be able to identify which type of gyno you have to take the correct compounds to combat it fast.

In it you mentioned your other concern with kessar and 19-nor (That it reduces 19-nor efficacy). Although this again does not have relevance to the topic we are dicussing (that kessar is better than clomid for PCT) it does intrigue me. I would like to see some papers discussing the effect of kessar on 19-nor compounds. In addition if this is indeed the case I would like to see papers showing this effect is not the same with clomid.
In addition I dont agree with your comment about arimidex. Although it does not treat progesterone related gyno 'at the source' it will still help considerably with pregesterone related gyno, by negating the effect of estrogen.



Summary
All in all these to topics above do not provide any reason for using clomid instead of kessar for PCT. I did however find some concerns raised about the use of kessar on cycle while using a 19-nor compound. For the concerns of increase progesterone receptor expression and sensitivity it is important to note that this is something observed using all SERMs including clomid and kessar. For the concerns of affecting 19-nor anabolic ability I cannot find research on this, so can't comment (However I am very interested in the idea).
Either way these two points are not relevant for PCT (the topic we are debating) and do not lend weight to the use of clomid over kessar for this purpose. Kessar is still the PCT SERM of choice.

Sorry, I know this makes four posts in a row, but as an afterthought if one is taking high levels of Deca or Tren and is really concerned with progesterone related HPTA shut down affecting their recovery then the simplest answer is simply to use bromocriptine or caber on cycle. Choosing clomid instead of kessar for PCT will not help with recovery.