First Cycle (Oral Sample Cycle Modified)

Good day folks

So my moffie ass was convinced that for my first cycle, the oral-only route is the way to go. Promptly procured the Proviron/Primo + PCT drugs as suggested by the Sample Cycle section and commenced the day the goodies arrived. I'm now on day 7 and after innumerable hours on this forum, research on the interwebs, and hundreds of YouTube vids (MorePlates, MoreDates being my fav) I've come to realise the error of my ways. I've decided to man the fuck up and add Test E to my stack as well as to expand the original 10-week cycle to 12 weeks, followed by 5 weeks of PCT.

I've a suspicion that adding the Anavar is overkill and that I'm not running the Test E for long enough.

Stats:

37 years
80kg
1.84m
16% BF
Current resting HR 65
8+ hours of sleep per night
5 days per week in the gym
Skinny-fat(esque), ergo body recomp, looking to get shredded with a good increase in lean muscle mass

Please see the graph below:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQO9438Igd0XhvFLRGV2mlWvOkjTfY5wjnvlp0R406I-goGRrDBfeNQOd3LzlyUMGKb9Z7eW_cwGa8i/pubchart?oid=1122064541&format=image

Gear Per Day

Had some trouble inserting a pic, so inserted the link as well. Let me know if you have trouble viewing it.

Would love some feedback on this stack as well as the drugs and duration of the PCT (I'm unsure as to whether it is sufficient).

Thanks!

Gear Per Day:

Week 1

Primobolan 80mg
Proviron 20mg

Week 2

Primobolan 80mg
Proviron 20mg

Week 3

Primobolan 80mg
Proviron 20mg
Test E 200mg

Week 4

Primobolan 80mg
Proviron 40mg
Test E 200mg

Week 5

Primobolan 80mg
Proviron 80mg
Test E 300mg

Week 6

Primobolan 80mg
Proviron 80mg
Test E 300mg

Week 7

Primobolan 80mg
Proviron 80mg
Test E 300mg

Week 8

Primobolan 80mg
Proviron 80mg
Test E 300mg

Week 9

Primobolan 100mg
Proviron 80mg
Anavar 60mg

Week 10

Primobolan 100mg
Proviron 80mg
Anavar 60mg

Week 11

Primobolan 100mg
Proviron 80mg
Anavar 80mg

Week 12

Primobolan 100mg
Proviron 80mg
Anavar 80mg

Week 13 (PCT)

Clomid 100mg

Week 14 (PCT)

Nolvadex 20mg

Week 15 (PCT)

Nolvadex 20mg

Week 16 (PCT)

Nolvadex 20mg

Week 17 (PCT)

Nolvadex 20mg

am I seeing this correctly but for your first cycle you want 860mg of anabolics a week going up to 1120mg a week just on orals excluding proviron?

i didn't even use that much gear for my last contest prep

max dosing I got to was 950mg a week at the end of my cycle (250mg cyp,400mg primo inj and 350mg of Anavar a week) and I have got some 16 years of using gear usage!

also going more than 40mg of proviron a day is absolutely overkilling it with 2 other DHT drugs such as Anavar and primo.

if I was you I would extend the cycle from here of 300mg test e and maximum 420mg primo a week (420/7 is 60mg a day) and even then 720mg is large for a first cycle when 300mg of test alone would do an amazing job.

www.anabolicsteroids.co.za/forum/10-diet...0-potential-prep-log

that is the thread where i lay everything out.

Thanks, Empire.

My bad, Test E will be only once a week. Sorry for the confusion.

I shall reply in full when I'm back home.

Thank you, once again.

its not the test e dosing i am worried about, it is the total dose for the week, as i say those oral doses are massive!

Sisyphus wrote: Stats:

37 years
80kg
1.84m
16% BF

1. With those stats, you don't need gear, plenty of natty gains still to be made.
2. You say you like watching mpmd, well then you'd know his first cycle recommendation, is a simple 300mg per week test only, so not sure why you've overcomplicated things.

Training hard for more than two years now, feeling it's time to break through the plateau.

That being said, I'm hearing Derek in my head scolding me for the amount of gear I'm taking (luckily I'm not even considering touching trenbolone sandwiches).

In my defence, the cycle I'm on (sans Test E) is taken exactly from the sample cycle section. I suppose ignorance will not spare me a spanking... How much should I reduce it by? Or should I just abandon the orals altogether?

Thanks

Sisyphus wrote: Training hard for more than two years now, feeling it's time to break through the plateau.

That being said, I'm hearing Derek in my head scolding me for the amount of gear I'm taking (luckily I'm not even considering touching trenbolone sandwiches).

In my defence, the cycle I'm on (sans Test E) is taken exactly from the sample cycle section. I suppose ignorance will not spare me a spanking... How much should I reduce it by? Or should I just abandon the orals altogether?

Thanks

I mean disregarding the argument of if you should cycle anything or not.

Get bloods done first to see where you hormones lie.
Testosterone
SHBG (subsequently Free Testosterone)
Estrogen

To start with.
If there is a problem, cycling will at most lend you some gains, and might destroy you coming off.

I think a safe beginner cycle would be:
Testosterone 400-600mg
Some mild DHT derivative like anavar appropriately dosed

But you aren't there yet so don't stress yet.

Empire wrote: am I seeing this correctly but for your first cycle you want 860mg of anabolics a week going up to 1120mg a week just on orals excluding proviron?

i didn't even use that much gear for my last contest prep

max dosing I got to was 950mg a week at the end of my cycle (250mg cyp,400mg primo inj and 350mg of Anavar a week) and I have got some 16 years of using gear usage!

also going more than 40mg of proviron a day is absolutely overkilling it with 2 other DHT drugs such as Anavar and primo.

if I was you I would extend the cycle from here of 300mg test e and maximum 420mg primo a week (420/7 is 60mg a day) and even then 720mg is large for a first cycle when 300mg of test alone would do an amazing job.

www.anabolicsteroids.co.za/forum/10-diet...0-potential-prep-log

that is the thread where i lay everything out.

I outlined dosing here.

Sisyphus wrote: Training hard for more than two years now, feeling it's time to break through the plateau.

That being said, I'm hearing Derek in my head scolding me for the amount of gear I'm taking (luckily I'm not even considering touching trenbolone sandwiches).

In my defence, the cycle I'm on (sans Test E) is taken exactly from the sample cycle section. I suppose ignorance will not spare me a spanking... How much should I reduce it by? Or should I just abandon the orals altogether?

Thanks

If you are plateaud naturally at your stats, there is something else wrong and gear wont fix that.
Re examine everything, diet, macros, training intensity, volume, progression, sleep, stress etc.
Fix all this first.
Make your next 5kg+ of lean muscle gain naturally and then reevaluate at that stage.
You might not event want to use gear then, or if you do at least you have 'earned' it more.

Sisyphus, much like your name sake, you're pushing the boulder up the hill only for it to roll down again.
Nothing wrong with that but you're not gain8ng anything this round.
Listen to Empire and simplify your cycle. Môre is not better. Especially being AAS naive.

the first thing here is this :

what is your daily caloric intake number 1. Protein, carbs and fats. do you measure meals out with a scale? if you arent measuring your meals exactly and knowing what you are putting in to your body calorie wise, its like building a house but you don't know how many bricks (protein) concrete (carbs) and roof tiles (fats) you need, have or the cost of it.

next is your training : how many days a week are you training? what is your training program looking like? how many months have you been training? this is the work force to build your house. if you have a shit plan or no plan its like having 1 brick layer. if you have too many sets and days and exercises its like have a guy doing the foundations when all you need is a plaster for the job, and if you arent training to maximum effort and allowing for recovery is like having 20 guys on site building your house in the rain... ineffective work force for the job at hand.

80% of the work comes in from diet, training, cardio and sleep and recovery. all of those need 100% commitment. 10% of the gains come from anabolics as if you have missed anything out from the above you don't have the right foundations for your house. 5% is supplementation as that is only a minimal part and then 5% from peptide hormones, and nutrient control when you are starting out.

many people think 80% of the results come from the anabolics. but anabolics cant cover up shitty training, diet, sleeping, recovering and cardio.

from the sounds of things, you need to drop all orals and just run test for 16 weeks and get all of those basics sorted out.

I should change my name to Dunning-Kruger...

Consider me schooled.

There is just such a heck of a lot of information to be gathered out there; half the battle being to sift through the convoluted bullshit. And the more one learns, the more one realises how much of a fucking noob you are and that you should just shut the fuck up and get your house in order first.

many people think 80% of the results come from the anabolics. but anabolics cant cover up shitty training, diet, sleeping, recovering and cardio

Noted, thanks. I'm afraid diet is hit and miss in terms of ticking all the particular boxes. BMR is around 1,800 kcal, consuming around 2,000kcal per day. 80 to 120g of protein per day, carbs 220g per day, fats might be a little high at around 80g. My biggest sin is overeating on my rest days. I cook healthy food (meals are around 140kcal/100g) but I realise it needs to be more goal-orientated.

Listen to Empire and simplify your cycle. More is not better. Especially being AAS naive.

I would be entirely obtuse if I didn't follow his advice. I've read the quote about AAS being like a lift button so many times but it's clearly taken some time to sink in.

You might not event want to use gear then, or if you do at least you have 'earned' it more.

Initially, this type of comment would piss me off but the more I learn the more I realise it's sage advice.

Back to the drawing board for me.

I appreciate all the advice. Will keep you posted.

You should be eating about 2500 calories to maintain what you are currently of which 200g should be your protein content. 80g fat and balance carbs.

If comments like this piss you off, then you have an ego problem and you are getting offended by the best free advice you are going to get, and sadly, 95% of the time people don't listen to free advice and aren't willing to learn from experienced guys. I've been on and off aas for 15 years, and been coaching for 12 of those years, trust me, I have seen it all, and worked with someone of the coolest guys in the world to learn from. So if that offends you, sadly it's a you thing.

I'm here to be the voice of reason to say high dose cycles cause more damage long term, and if you get the 80% right you can use 1/3 of what you wanted to.

So use it, don't use it. Up to you, but I know that the guys I work with who follow this, get results.

Thanks, Empire.

I think you misunderstood me. I'm not pissed off at all. The annoyance I was referring to was like a child getting annoyed with his dad for telling him to go to bed, not listening to him, and then the next day regretting it because he's super tired.

In essence what I'm saying is that I'm going to follow wholeheartedly the advice of people with way more experience than me.

My apologies if I came across as snotty.

Thank you once again for taking the time to respond and advise. Much appreciated!

I hear you on your comment, but at the end of the day, you have got one of the best resources on your hands on this forum, some guys who advocate high doses, some who don't.

I used to advocate higher doses until I got better results from lower doses timed better with less side effects.

Update:

Cycle simplified! Pin virginity broken on Tuesday. Test E, first week 150mg, the next week will be 250mg, then I'll take it from there. Cue the rolling eyes: I'm using a slin pin, subq, pinning 3/4 times a week. Little bit of PIP but I'll just have to deal (made my bed).

Can being on two DHT-derivatives crush one's oestrogen? Seeing as no testosterone was being arimatised? I was starting to feel extremely low, unmotivated, despondent, and was wondering if this were a result of non-existant levels of oestrogen.

I was, however, starting to like the dryness/more shredded look and did gain some lean muscle (was only in orals for 2 weeks so didn't expect a lot).

Started taking TUDCA, NAC, ACC200,and liver support tablets (which contains milk thistle - the farts were real!). I'm wondering if that wasn't a little overkill...

Also started taking melatonin and my sleep duration and quality has improved markedly.

I've also increased my calorie intake, including substantially upping my protein intake (thanks Empire).

Thanks, once again, for all the advice.

bro just inject LONG ESTER TEST 2x a week, you do not need to do 3/4 times a week, that is just pointless. do the injections 84 hours apart, Monday morning Thursday night. you are seriously over-complicating things by doing so many small shots. the whole benefit of LONG ESTERS is the lack of injection frequency, makes life easier for most people, yet you are overcomplicating things at this stage.

I don't think it is a case of being on 2 DHT compounds, I suffer the same issue when I prep for the last 2 weeks when I drop any test, its a case of you are being on suppressive substances that are suppressing your testosterone levels. now being on the test you should feel a boost in mood.

so now what are you doing oralwise?

also i hope you have brought your calorie intake up to about 2500-2600 calories to help with growth, not just increasing protein amount.

I'm trying to mimic the natural rhythm of testosterone secretion; apparently more frequent smaller doses (as opposed to one or two supraphysiological doses) helps minimise side-effects, apparently to such an extent that one doesn't need aromatase-inhibitors. I actually don't mind the slin pins, it's just a schlepp that it takes so much time to fill up and inject.

But, alas, you're the one with the experience, so if this is hogwash, please let me know.

I've indeed increased my calorie intake, managed it with more frequent eating (I'm always carrying around food, feel like a fucking camel) :silly:

I've stopped the orals, cold turkey (I figured with their short half-life, that shouldn't be a problem). I was planning on taking them again after my 10-week test cycle, as a bridge to PCT. Feel kind of stupid for having spent the moolah on oral gear without thinking it through...

Do you reckon I should include it in my regime? Maybe take a small dose before training?

Just do Twice weekly injections. Stop over complicating it bud.

I would use the orals once you are 8 weeks in..20mg of primo daily for 3 weeks, then 40mg daily for 3 weeks. Then you can do on to your pct

Ok, so I'm 4 days into testen and I'm wondering whether I should be noticing the effects so rapidly?!? Or is it psychosomatic?

The first noticeable effect was a general lift in mood and my workouts yesterday and today were on fire ????!

Is it possibly because of the two weeks of "pre-loading" (if one could even call it that)?

Whatever the case, I'm feeling great and I'm looking forward to my next workout

Sisyphus wrote: Ok, so I'm 4 days into testen and I'm wondering whether I should be noticing the effects so rapidly?!? Or is it psychosomatic?

The first noticeable effect was a general lift in mood and my workouts yesterday and today were on fire ????!

Is it possibly because of the two weeks of "pre-loading" (if one could even call it that)?

Whatever the case, I'm feeling great and I'm looking forward to my next workout

Give us an update, test should've reached saturation levels by now

Good morning folks

Here's a thorough update on my progress and experience of being on Test E:

• I'm on my fourth week of Test E, Pinning ever second day, sub-q, slin pin
• I started at around 225mg per week, I'm now on around 250mg per week. The following week I'll be titrating up to 300mg.

My first pin day was on a Tuesday, so weeks that start on a Tuesday are long weeks, and weeks that start on a Wednesday are short weeks. Here is a summary of my weekly totals:

1. First week: 225mg LONG
2. Second week: 195mg SHORT
3. Third week: 258mg LONG
4. Fourth week: 252mg SHORT

What should be the dosage I ultimately titrate to?

Side effects:

1. The skin on my face is more oily with a few more zits here and there. Mostly remedied by stopping moisturiser. No noticeable acne anywhere else
2. Itchy scalp!! This sometimes drives me nuts, but it's not affecting my quality of life whatsoever
3. Some hair loss but nothing noticeable. Still have a thick head of hair. A few extra strands of hair falling off when I brush/shampoo but not to the extent that it causes alarm
4. Slight shrinking of my testes. Nothing concerning
5. No increase in libido (this one I'm bummed about!)
6. No increase in irritability or aggression

Positive effects include higher levels of energy, better sleep (which could also be due to making a concerted effort to get at least ( hours every night + melatonin), slightly more positive outlook on life.

Gains:

Visually, I've more definition but the numbers given by my scale disappoint - I've not seen marked changes in the readings of weight, muscle mass, body fat percentage. Where I have seen changes is in the circumference measurements:

1. Neck - increase of 1cm
2. Shoulders - increase of 2cm
3. Chest - increase of 9cm
4. Waist - decrease of 3.5cm
5. Abdomen - decrease of 0.5cm
6. Hip - decrease of 2cm
7. Biceps - increase of 1cm
8. Thighs - increase of 2cm
9. Calves - increase of 1cm

Conclusion

I'm a little disappointed by the results on paper but my improvement in physique appearance is satisfactory, albeit slow. Given these results and seeing how the time on this cycle is slowly running out has really made me realise how pivotal diet is. I'm also going to have to seriously increase my training intensity and frequency. The tempo of improvement during this cycle has increased more so than at any time since I started taking exercising and lifting more seriously, which was in Feb 2020. However, I'm finding it hard to get perspective on my improvements due to being a rookie lifter and a gear newbie.

I would be eternally grateful for any feedback.

I'm going to follow Empire's recommendation and start stacking the Test E with Primo at week 8. I was also planning on only running a 10-week test cycle. Is this sufficient or should I be pushing it up to 12 weeks?

Thanks again!

titrate up to a max dose of 3mg of testosterone per kg, after that you are going to get side effects.

get niz shampoo from your pharmacy it is a s2. use it as a face wash and on your head, leave it on for at least 5 minutes, it is known to help with acne on the face and scalp.

at 4 weeks you are now at peak concentration and things will start happening, as long as you are training intensely, getting in sufficient sleep, enough calories, etc you will start to grow at this point. remember if training frequently and with massive intensity, volume needs to be lower. doing 2 -3 sets to failure over 2 exercises will give you enough time to recover if you are hitting the next session in the next 2-3 days. if you check out my contest prep thread you will see I only did 1 exercise per muscle group, baring back which is 2, 2x a week and the growth was there on low anabolics and a good diet.

think about how babies grow, they eat, sleep, stimulate muscles and grow. do the same thing. training a muscle more than 2x a week isn't going to be productive, and that is always why I fall back to the upper/lower split with massive intensity and plenty of recovery.

you can push the test to 12 weeks, just push out your primo dosing by 2 weeks if you do that.

Gulde raad, baie dankie Empire!

Ek't sommer summier vir my Selsun gekry wat glo dieselfde doen as Niz sjampoe.

Sal binnekort weer laat weet hoe dit gaan