Time to cycle!

Hi all,

So I have decided I want to now do a cycle. My gym buddy is going to join me on the cycle as well and he will probably do the exact same cycle as me.
I plan on starting the cycle around the 1st December. I am currently cutting, then for the month of November I will eat at maintenance to try get my strength up a bit and hormone levels and such.

I plan on doing a "lean" bulk, however I would still like to get as much out of my cycle as possible and understand that picking up some fat is inevitable.

Stats:
24
1.63cm
Currently 51KG
Around 2 years training experience
Maintenance Calories: 2000

Proposed Cycle:
Week 1 - 4: LP Dbol or LP Tbol (see below)
Week 1 - 11: PGW Test Cyp (250mg twice a week)
Week ? - ?: HCG

PCT:
Starts 4 weeks (29 days) after last test cyp pin?
Day 1 - 7: LP Clomid (100mg)
Day 8 - 30: LP Nolva (20mg)
Day ? - ?: HCG

I plan on using ONE Cycle Support throughout the whole cycle. Would this suffice? Any other recommendations?
I have some Aromasin on hand should I need an AI - will only use it if I notice side effects.

Now this is basically the beginners bulking cycle which I took from the sample cycles.

I am a bit unsure about when do start with the HCG - I know it is recommended to start it during your cycle and then you run it up until PCT if I am not mistaken? So when should I be running this to and from and then it would be 500iu EOD?


With regards to the Dbol / Tbol I am contemplating using Tbol instead, however I would like to keep costs down for my 1st cycle so am wondering how many mg of Tbol would be recommended per day so that I can work out the costing and see whether I want to run Dbol or Tbol.


In terms of calories, I was thinking of eating between 500 - 800 calories above maintenance. Does this sound about right? I understand that as I gain weight my maintenance calories will increase and therefore my overall calorie consumption will increase. I plan on using My Fitness Pal to help me keep track of my macros and calories. Macros I was thinking of splitting it 40% carbs, 40% protein, 20% fat?


I think this is all for now, I am creating the thread a while in advanced so that I can prepare myself and make sure I have everything I need before I start my cycle.

Assistance would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
Psy

Hi Psy.

HCG would be 500iu twice a week like Monday and Thursday. Some run it every 2 days.
Tbol if it is your first cycle 40mg a day would work but 60mg a day split into three doses 8hours apart. If I am not mistaken Tbol half life is 16hours so you can do 40mg in two daily doses.

For the month of November eat your Maintenance yes but up Fats to 30% That is optimal for hormones and so on this would also be a good time to get your body used to eating more protein than usual I would say to bulk with Anabolics 1.5g-2g per KG of bodyweight.

Keep in mind keeping your Estrogen levels to low whule on cycle can actually slow down your gains or halt them altogether. Rather go with Liquid Adex. But If you go with Aromasin take it Every other day. What Brand and Dosing do you have?

What is your Body Fat% at?

Rooi Bul 86 wrote: Hi Psy.

HCG would be 500iu twice a week like Monday and Thursday. Some run it every 2 days.
Tbol if it is your first cycle 40mg a day would work but 60mg a day split into three doses 8hours apart. If I am not mistaken Tbol half life is 16hours so you can do 40mg in two daily doses.

For the month of November eat your Maintenance yes but up Fats to 30% That is optimal for hormones and so on this would also be a good time to get your body used to eating more protein than usual I would say to bulk with Anabolics 1.5g-2g per KG of bodyweight.

Keep in mind keeping your Estrogen levels to low whule on cycle can actually slow down your gains or halt them altogether. Rather go with Liquid Adex. But If you go with Aromasin take it Every other day. What Brand and Dosing do you have?

What is your Body Fat% at?

When would I start the HCG and when would I stop it?
So with Tbol, 40mg a day would work but 60mg would be optimal? In which case my friend and I could purchase and share 3 bottles worth of Tbol and take 60mg a day for 25 days?

I always aim for 2g per KG of bodyweight and I hit that just about consistently on a daily basis, even now while cutting. Noted on increased fats for November, thanks!

I already have the Aromasin, brand is Liquid Pharma and they are 20mg caps.


As for body fat %, I honestly do not know. If I were to guess I would say maybe 10% or 9% if I am lucky. Although I am sure it is low enough to start a cycle.
Perhaps someone could give me a rough estimation, hard to tell with the shitty lighting and poor quality pics and lack of back pics. I know, sorry!

Taken 2 days ago:

Literally just taken now:

Less than 12%

Start the HCG as soon as test kick in.
3-4 weeks in.

You will make good gains on 4weeks of 60mg Tbol a day. Keep Protein intake up.

If you stay in the same mind set and keep being so spot on with nutrition you will do good on this cycle.

I found in the past that if your diet is clean and good and you do not consume to much carbs Test does not make you bloat to bad then same goes for water retention.
So keep your Aromasin and Nolvadex on hand and if you see you are bloating at a rate that does not agree with your goal then start taking the Aroma at 20mg EOD.

Rooi Bul 86 wrote: Start the HCG as soon as test kick in.
3-4 weeks in.

You will make good gains on 4weeks of 60mg Tbol a day. Keep Protein intake up.

If you stay in the same mind set and keep being so spot on with nutrition you will do good on this cycle.

I found in the past that if your diet is clean and good and you do not consume to much carbs Test does not make you bloat to bad then same goes for water retention.
So keep your Aromasin and Nolvadex on hand and if you see you are bloating at a rate that does not agree with your goal then start taking the Aroma at 20mg EOD.

When would I stop the HCG?

Awesome, thanks!


What about training? Should that change in anyway? Higher reps? Try hit each bodypart twice a week?

Run the HCG until a day or two before you start Clomid and Nolva PCT.
If you stop HCG to soon your testis will atrophy and you will get shut doen bad that is the reasoning behind running HCG on cycle to keep size and weight and function of your boys up and to prevent total shut down.

Psy

Would you mind posting the 5x5 routine Furk started you out on for me in my official thread please?

I think you're jumping into steroids too quickly. You are doing quite a lot wrong if you are only 51kgs after 2 years training and while steroids will temporarily help - I don't think you've mastered the basics enough for your gains to be maintained after your cycle. I don't mean to cause drama, just my personal opinion. I think you need to look more seriously into your diet and training.

Hormonas wrote: I think you're jumping into steroids too quickly. You are doing quite a lot wrong if you are only 51kgs after 2 years training and while steroids will temporarily help - I don't think you've mastered the basics enough for your gains to be maintained after your cycle. I don't mean to cause drama, just my personal opinion. I think you need to look more seriously into your diet and training.

Fair point, I was 48KG (after eating) before I started training and had a looot more fat on me than I currently do.
Before I started cutting I was around 56KG / 57KG (after eating) or so.
When I first started going to gym I struggled to bench an empty bar (so 20KG). I remember I needed to do dumb bell presses with a 5KG and now I am doing 22.5KG dumb bell presses

However has it been enough, is my diet and training where it should be? Something for me to think about and consider I guess.

I think you've made some awesome progress and there is no taking that away from you - genuinely is awesome that you've managed that. The answer to your question is no, you haven't done enough, YET. You're stronger and have a better physique but you do need to learn to put on some more serious size, naturally. Learn to do that and you'll be killer on cycle.

A lot of forums and boards around the world would seriously frown upon you even suggesting a cycle below 70kgs (taking your height into consideration). I just urge you to try to improve naturally, learn your body, learn how to build it and improve it, learn the mind-muscle connection etc until you're around that weight.

Just a little side note; weigh yourself in the morning on an empty stomach, that way you'll get an accurate reading.

Thank for that Hormonas.

I apologise. Did not read any of his other threads.

Psy you made awesome progress in the strength and lifting department.

Keep at it and do a natural lean bulk like you want to. Read some of Layne Nortons work. www.simplyshredded.com you can even follow his training routine.

Go do your bloods again and give us feedback on those results maybe there is a reason why your progress in the gym did not translate into gains in size.

You are lean bud we are almost the same height I am 1.68m If you want to grow work in some carbs whole wheat low gi pasta. Work in Lean mince. You need beef to become a beef cake.

Hey Psy, gonna stick my head in here. Just some points I'm going to raise. Not going to stop you, I'm also not going to encourage you.

1) Your training must change. You mentioned you're doing a bro split now, that's okay I guess. But IMO you need to consciously put focus on upper body. It might be the picture quality, but comparing from memory your legs have grown fast.

2) 40mg Tbol will be fine. 60mg will be a waste at your weight, lots of heavier lifters have seen good results on 40.

3) At your current build, people will be able to pick up that you are taking something. So just be comfortable that you might have to explain yourself.

Just an addition:

What RooiBull is talking about, find it here: P.H.A.T.
Or dowload the program here: Clicky click

I agree with Hormonsas. It does not look like you have been training for 2 years, or even one year. I don't think you have done enough groundwork.

About your cycle..

If I had your frame, I would run dbol, test and then a winstrol bridge. I would also get a proper bulking diet going and eat like a horse.

About your photos, I don't know how the guys can judge your legs when

1. The angle of the camera is not the same
2. You not wearing the same pants and don't expose the same leg muscles.
3. Take the photos at the same time of the day with the same lighting to judge yourself.

And don't cut anymore or you will be no more... EAT !

Thanks for the advice guys! If I were to get to 70KG I'd be friggen huge! Insanely so I think...

I generally weight myself in the mornings, although before I started lifting I would weigh myself whenever so was comparing weights as accurately as possible (after eating with after eating).
Before cutting I was 54KG in the morning.


I will certainly get my bloods done again, I was planning on getting them done before I start a cycle and even if I do not cycle I will still get them done. Sometime in November I think. See what exactly is happening.

That PHAT program seems pretty awesome and interesting, I think I will switch over to it from tomorrow and see how it works out for me.



So if I were to do a cycle now, I most likely won't keep most of the weight when I stop?

70kg at your height and same bf% would look really big.

You will lose most of the gains when you come off the steroids. Congrats on your progress so far but you just need to learn how to eat properly for optimal growth FIRST. You are super lean and your body is crying for the right nutrition! Bodybuilding has way more to do with what you eat than the drugs.

At 50kg you must realise that you need very steroids to see huge results. 500mg/week of testosterone for you is like 1000mg/week for a 100kg guy doing his first cycle. Overkill. With steroids, like most drugs, the efficacy comes down to mg per kg of bodyweight.

I just think it's essential to learn to to eat right first. I also jumped onto steroids too soon but at least got 12kg of gains first.

The mistake everybody make is when they gain 8kg's on cycle.... they think its about 6kg muscle and 2kg water........ when its actually only 7.5kg of nothing but water that will be lost in a few weeks after your cycle anyway.

Psy

Glad to hear you looked at his training program.
Now go google Layne Norton's bulking diet. Use his guide lines for Grams of macro's per KG and create your own bulking diet.
Get yourself some 5-methyl-7-methoxy-isoflavone and beta-cedysterone both natural supplements proven to increase nitrogen retention and protein synthesis they also do not have any hormonal impsact or side effects.
I wil go dig I post up the research proven dosages for you. From that reasearch you will see what MA meant any compounds activity and results can be traced back to and is linked to mg/kg of bodyweight.

As Promised
The work on Beta Ecdysterone:

Clayton's Health Facts: Ecdysterone.

By Clayton SouthLast updated: Jan 01, 2001Clayton South, SPN (ISSA), is a recognized expert in the bodybuilding / fitness industry with over 150 bodybuilding, fitness and nutrition publications to his credit.What Are You Trying To Obtain? You might want to build yourself a more athletic body-- maybe even one with deep muscular cuts of muscle, perhaps a chiseled six-pack, and possibly even some ripped legs? Or, how about simply improving where you are at right now in terms of health, muscle-gain and fat-loss?For starters, this is going to take some work. But, what good is hard work if it's not producing maximum gains in both strength, fat-loss, and health? Not as good as it could be!The research and development of anabolic supplements has yielded some amazing results in recent years and the scientific breakthroughs show no signs of diminishing. Of course creatine, glutamine, protein and multi-vitamins are standard issue in an athlete's arsenal. Beyond the basics, we've witnessed the development of Prohormones, ZMA, and Isoflavones such as Methoxyisoflavone. Clearly, we've seen remarkable advances in anabolic supplementation in the past five years and now another breakthrough has been released.Prepare yourself for what could be the single most importantadvancement in bodybuilding since steroids... The future of supplementation is here!Ecdysterone is a powerful compound to say the least and based on the research, it can definitely help you maximize your genetic potential. Best of all, it's proven safe and effective for men, women, and even teenagers! In fact, ecdysterone may just be the next herbal extract to create a revolution in the health, fitness, and bodybuilding world.What Is It?And Where Does It Come From?It's known by other names of course, the technical name is 20-Beta-Hydroxyecdysterone and other common names are: ecdisten, ecdysone, isoinokosterone, 20-hydroxyecdysone and ecdysterone. Interestingly, it was first discovered in insects acting as an invertebrate polyhydroxylated sterolic growth hormone. Actually, insects depend on it for their survival. Could there be some correlation between insects superior strength ratio and this compound? What would the effects be on vertebrates such as mammals? If we had the proportionate strength of an ant, for example, we could easily pick up a car.Even if a fraction of this power could be available through ecdysterone supplementation, the idea of supplementing with "bug juice" just isn't too appealing. Luckily, it's not obtained through insects for supplementation! It happens to exist as a compound in the herbs Rhaponticum/Leuzeae and Cyanotis vaga, and is therefore a naturally occurring phytochemical. Phew!Until recently; however, it was not easily available. Although Ecdysterone has been known and tested in Russia since 1988, it never received much attention because there existed no cost-effective way to extract it. Russian researchers and scientists had a very pure version developed, but it was costly...$20,000 per kilogram. The only other choice was Suma extract, which contained so little ecdysterone that it would have been ineffective as a viable ecdysterone-supplementation option.Within in the past year (2000), companies specializing in the extraction of high potency compounds from herbs have developed a way to extract concentrated ecdysterone at a standardized up to 97%! The breakthrough technology, in-vitro cell cultivation, provided the needed purity and concentration of ecdysterone to make it a viable option for economical supplementation. This is great news for anyone wanting to increase lean muscle mass, decrease fat and improve performance. So, bodybuilders, fitness enthusiasts and athletes listen up, the scientific data behind the "Steroidal Holy Grail" is simply incredible!What Does It Do?And What Scientific Studies Give Evidence To Support This?Scientists have performed over 50 studies on ecdysterone to conclude one resounding agreement: Ecdysterone is safe and it improves nearly every bodily function...without side effects. What else does it do? Two words: Muscle Growth. Ah, what the heck, here's a few more...Research-backed ecdysterone supplementation properties:Ecdysterone Highlights: A Drastic Increase in Lean Body MassIncreased EnduranceStimulates MetabolismImproves Nerve Function and Enhances Erythropoiesis (the development of mature red blood cells (erythrocytes))Decreases Blood SugarReduces Adipose TissueImproves Nearly Every Bodily Function Including Brain and LiverIt's Safe and Effective for Men, Women, and Even TeenagersPrevents the Loss of Muscle Mass while Promoting Growth of Muscle FibersNot To Mention:It does all this with absolutely no reported side effects, making it safe beyond reproach. No Negative Side EffectsNo VirilizationNo Conversion Into Estrogenic CompoundsNo Liver ToxicityNo High Blood PressureNo Testicular ShrinkageNo effects on the hormonal system in mammals including humansIncredibly Low Toxicity Levels (Over 4,000 times that which a person should consume)Complete List: Increases protein synthesisImproves nearly every bodily functionStimulates protein synthesis in nervous tissue and increases nerve functionIncreases growth anabolicly in vertebrates including humansIncreases total protein and glycogen content in musclesIncreases myofibrilar proteins more efficiently than the anabolic steroids Methandrostenolone, the most potent steroid, DianabolSuppresses hypoglycemia while powerfully stabilizing blood sugar levelsPerfect glycemic regulator leading to constant energy and feeling of well-beingStimulates incorporation of glycogen into proteinaceous tissue such as liver and musclePrevents high blood sugar levels and high insulin levels thereby halting fat productionPushes nutrients into muscle and organ tissue yielding better muscle growth and repairPossesses potent cholesterol-lowering effectStimulates the phospholipids that are linked to enormous health benefits when stimulatedLowers cholesterol having a potent hepatoprotective actionCell membrane stabilizing propertiesAnti-arrhythmia stabilizing propertiesRestorative action on atherosclerosisAnalgestic properties and a potent antioxidative effectPowerful anti-inflammatory propertiesWorks against high cortisol levels as an anti-catabolic agent by reducing/eliminating stressors such as inflammation, preventing cortisol from being releasedPositive effect on the skin improving: keratinization, differentiation and acneVastly increases athletic performance by increasing work capacity, body-weight, lung capacity, and VO2 max while also increasing exhalation of CO2.Increases lean muscle tissue and reduces adipose contentReduces fatigue and apathy, yet increases speed and strengthPromotes a positive nitrogen balance and maintains a greater rate of protein synthesis Ecdysterone Goes Head-to-Head With Dianabol And Wins!What an incredible compound! Not only does ecdysterone facilitate a tremendous amount of positive effects in the body, but it elicits zero negatives! Think about it. Here we have a compound that has gone head-to-head with steroids in studies and won anabolicly with none of the associated side effects of steroids! One study conducted by top Russian researchers paired ecdysterone directly against Dianabol, one of the most powerful anabolic steroid developed.The study showed equivalent anabolic activity with one exception: ecdysterone stimulated both slow and the all-important fast twitch muscle fibers, while Dianabol only stimulated the slow fibers! I think it's safe to say that yes, there are anabolic steroids and growth hormones in existence that are more powerful than ecdysterone. That's to be expected. But what if you could have a compound similar to that in power, but with no side effects? Yowzers! It goes without saying that if this is indeed true, ecdysterone merits a closer look.How Does It Possibly Exhibit All Of These Above Positive Effects With Little Or No Negative Side Effects?The Secret Lies In The Compound Itself.The single most important factor in maximizing muscle growth is environment. Ecdysterone works to create the "perfect" muscle-building environment in the body, among other positive effects. The perfect conditions for creating the perfect muscle building environment include maintaining a positive nitrogen balance and increasing protein synthesis along with intelligent, consistent exercise and a balanced diet rich in protein. It's long been understood that if the body was able to maintain the perfect anabolic environment, maximum muscle growth would occur.Maintaining positive nitrogen balance and increased protein synthesis without also incurring hormonal side-effects was the trick. This is why researchers became so enthralled with ecdysterone when Doctor Burdette in 1963 found that ecdysterone enhanced the rate of protein synthesis. This was the beginning of over 50 studies showing the remarkable effects of ecdysterone on the body while simultaneously showing now side effects. Now, with the increased economical availability of pure concentrated ecdysterone, the picture is finally becoming more complete. Studies:Ecdysterone has been tested for its effects on work capacity, immune function, lean body mass and fat loss, among other variables in a number of scientific studies. The vast majority of research indicates an increase in test subjects' lean mass. Results were further improved when ecdysterone was consumed with protein. Increase Protein Synthesis and Invoke Positive Nitrogen Balance:Studies conducted in the Soviet Union in 1988 showed ecdysterone helps "increase hepatic protein synthesis and subsequently promote positive nitrogen balance!" How does this lead to more muscle mass? Simply: "the more nitrogen your body maintains and the greater rate of protein synthesis, the more mass, period." How, exactly, does ecdysterone do this?V. Smetanin, researcher of the Smolenk State Medical Institute in Russia speculates that ecdysterone decreases urea concentration in the body and increases hemoglobin levels by increasing a process called erythropoiesis. Erythropoiesis is the development of mature red blood cells. This leads to a stimulation of the anabolic process in protein metabolism, which in turn leads to a positive nitrogen balance in the body. Increase Lean Muscle Mass While Reducing Body Fat:The most often quoted ecdysterone scientific study was published in Scientific Sports Bulletinby S. Simakin in 1988. The objective of Simakin's famous study was to determine the effect of ecdysterone on muscle tissue mass and fat mass, while testing for hormonal changes in the subjects.For the study, three control factors were used: a placebo, protein, and ecdysterone with protein. The results were significantly in favor of the third factor. Of the 78 highly trained male and female athletes who consumed just protein, they showed only a slight increase in muscle mass for the 10 day period of time.Those who used a placebo lost a slight amount of lean muscle, while those who used protein plus ecdysterone showed a 6-7% increase in lean muscle tissue with nearly a 10% reduction in fat! Let me say that again: A 10% reduction in fat and a 7% increase in lean muscle tissue in just 10 days! Safety testing was conducted during the same time period which showed no difference in hormonal balance. Wow, if ecdysterone plus protein can do this for highly trained athletes, just think what it can do for the average person!It's interesting to note the amount of Ecdysterone these Soviet Studies used. According to Derek Cornelius, "Most of the experiments used 5 mg per kilogram of body mass per day as the dosage." To find out how much you would need to take to supply this same amount of ecdysterone, use this equation:MG/KG XYour Weight= Dosage:In Kilograms:5 mg X78 kg= 386In Pounds:5 mg X170lbs / 2.2lbs= 386So, the average person should consume 300-600 mg of ecdysterone per day to meet this dosage. This compound is so non-toxic that this is a perfectly safe amount to consume. Increase Stamina, Endurance, And Energy:Ecdysterone was tested in another study performed in 1986 by B.Ya Smetanin. For this research, 117 highly trained speed skaters between the ages of 18 and 28 were tested for work capacity, body weight, lung capacity and VO2 max. The results speak for themselves: all of the said parameters increased as well as an increase in the O2 pulse max and an increase in the exhalation of CO2.Basically, they received more oxygen to their cells! This equates to decreasing recovery time, maximizing performance, permitting optimal muscle anabolism and maximum fat reduction. It also means the athletes using ecdysterone compared to those on a placebo experienced increased stamina, endurance and energy.That's not all! A study conducted using 112 athletes performed by B.G. Fadeev in Russia showed some very impressive overall results. However, by this time, the results should come as no surprise. 89% of those who supplemented with ecdysterone versus a placebo reported less fatigue, greater performance, more motivation, greater speed, and improved strength. How long did it take before these athletes reported these effects? Months? Weeks? No, five days. To make matters even better, no adverse side effects were reported.Who Needs It?And What Are Some Symptoms Of Deficiency?Bodybuilders, athletes and fitness enthusiasts will find the extra gains in lean muscle mass and reduction in body fat very beneficial. Based on all the research, Ecdysterone looks to be not only incredibly effective as a performance enhancer on all facets, but also very safe. Since it is not a required nutrient, there are no symptoms of deficiency. However, if you would like to experience more energy and strength gains in less time than you've probably ever experienced, grab some ecdysterone and protein because you are the perfect candidate! Check out the section below to learn more on side effects and recommended dosages.How Much Should Be Taken?Are There Any Side Effects?What about side effects? That's the best part! As you already know by now, research studies show no negative side effects, no hormonal interactions, and a very low toxicity level for ecdysterone. When tested by ICN Biochemicals on December 31, 1998, a complete safety test was performed to determine the toxicity. The data showed the amount of ecdysterone one would have to take in order to reach toxicity. The amount? 6400 mg/kg! In other words, an average 170lb person would have to take 494,528 mg of the compound to reach this point! This is 4,121 times as much as the recommended dose.So, as you can see, it's very safe with an incredibly low toxicity. Furthermore, endocrine testing showed that ecdysterone caused no effect whatsoever on the mammalian hormonal system. Testing was measured on testosterone, cortisol, insulin, ACTH, growth hormone, and leutinizing hormone. The data not only shows ecdysterone to be extremely safe, but effective as well!The recommended dose of ecdysterone is 80-120 mg per day and upwards of 400-600 mg per day. We've even heard reports of people receiving amazing results working up to using as much as 1200 mg safely per day. Remember, ecdysterone should be taken with protein-rich meals for best results!

The Methoxyisoflavone work:

CLAYTON'S HEALTH FACTS: METHOXYISOFLAVONE.

Clayton's Health Facts: Methoxyisoflavone.

By Clayton SouthLast updated: Jan 01, 2001Clayton South, SPN (ISSA), is a recognized expert in the bodybuilding / fitness industry with over 150 bodybuilding, fitness and nutrition publications to his credit. What Is It? And Where Does It Come From? Can you think of any supplement other thancreatine that dramatically increases muscle mass, enhances strength, energy, and produces a leaner more muscular body? Such a quest has been going on for quite some time now.For some, anabolic steroids was the answer. These "miracle substances" inserted the super-potent male hormone testosterone into the body and the body reacted by recovering faster from workouts, building more quality muscle than previously thought possible, and causing fat to burn quicker. Wow! Great, perfect... until the side effects came to light.This artificial testosterone caused more than just the muscles to grow. All the inner organs of the body also grew, causing "turtle belly". Not to mention other possible androgenic side-effects like sodium retention, acne, gynecomastia, aggression, hypertension, cardiovascular disease, palpitations, enlarged heart, virilization, cancer, decreased blood clotting ability, headaches, anxiety, depression, impotence, stomach aches, jaundice, muscle tears, enlarged prostate, premature hair loss, stunted growth, immune system suppression, insomnia, sterility, and anaphylactic shock?just to name a few. Well, maybe anabolic steroids aren't the best idea after all. Darn?what else?The search for a supplement that would produce the highly anabolic and sought-after steroid-like effects of faster muscle growth, recovery, and fat-burning, yet avoid the androgenic steroid-like side effects (acne, male-pattern baldness, prostate enlargement, etc.) has been an impossible feat?until now! Meet the Flavone family: 7-Isopropoxyisoflavone (Ipriflavone) and 5-methyl-7-methoxy-isoflavone (Methoxyisoflavone). These powerful anabolic compounds have just been brought to market by several pioneering companies. The results thus far are highly impressive to say the least. In fact, they may just be the sports supplements that everyone's been looking for!These flavones were originally discovered and patented by a Hungarian company, which we'll discuss further in a minute. The funny thing is, other than researching the compounds and becoming very impressed by them, they just sat on them and did?well, pretty much nothing as far as marketing and making them available to the population. This mysterious compound that could have revolutionized bodybuilding over 30 years ago, instead was locked up with a patent that wouldn't expire until 1997. Luckily the work they did laid the foundation for what we have today! When the patent expired and researchers read the paperwork-what they found out was shocking! Not only did 5-methyl-7-methoxy-isoflavone and 7-Isopropoxyisoflavone increase protein synthesis and increase lean mass, but they also reduced body fat, lowered cholesterol levels, promoted endurance, an increased state of vitality, and increased the body's ability to use oxygen! In other words, these are the perfect anabolic supplements... without the negatives of steroids!What does it do?And what scientific studies give evidence to support this? In a nutshell, methoxyisoflavone and ipriflavone are non-hormonal anabolic / anti-catabolic compounds. These powerful flavones have been shown to decrease cortisol levels, increase protein synthesis, and improve overall recovery from exercise. Wow!In order to fully understand the power of 5-methyl-7-methoxy-isoflavone, however; we must start with the first anabolic flavone compound to make big waves: 7-Isopropoxyisoflavone or Ipriflavone. This anabolic compound has been shown to have incredible results for rapid muscle growth on athletes, even though it has only been on the market for a short time. The lean muscle mass increase that people are experiencing on this is amazing! Chinoin (Hungarian pharmaceutical company), a leader in flavonoid research and knowledge, developed Ipriflavone in the early 1970's. The research was aimed toward finding a nutrient partitioning agent able to transport much needed nutrients away from fat (adipose) tissue and toward muscle (proteinaceous) tissue. During the journey, Chinoin discovered Ipriflavone not only did this, but more. The original patent does more than just raise eyebrows?it could make you fall out of your chair! The credibility of Chinoin's flavone research lies in this simple fact: it's much more difficult to get a U.S. Patent than to get published in a journal without an abundance of scientific proof.Right off the bat the patent outlines the flavone's ability to promote weight-gain and anabolism in it's composition.The results of the animal studies that were conducted are quite dramatic! For one thing, nitrogen retention increased (one of the primary actions of anabolic steroids), regardless of the species used. Add that nice attribute to the further finding that Ipriflavone produced no estrogenic side-effects and actually no negative effects in endocrine tissue at all, and you've got an extraordinary substance on your hands. The animals (rats, mice, chickens and so on), regardless of age, or dosage had no signs of changes in their endocrine systems. The animals just grew more muscular-with no negative impact on testosterone, testicular shrinkage, or aromatization-all possible anabolic steroid side effects. Verification of these finding was done when many of the animals were dissected. It was found that no androgenic side effects occurred, yet muscle tissue grew larger. The levator ani muscle (a large pelvic diaphragm muscle) went up in weight, while the seminal vesicles remained the same. If the seminal vesicles had changed, this would show androgenic side-effects, but there was no difference.The cortisol-suppressing action of Ipriflavone also impressed researchers. In fact, identical doses of anabolic steroids did not have as good of effects on cortisol suppression as did Ipriflavone. Basically, the cattle, pigs, rabbits, and poultry when fed Ipriflavone-enriched feed at a dosage of 2 grams per 100kg increased in lean body mass at an incredible 7%-20%! To put this in perspective, think of a 200 pound bodybuilder adding an extra 10% or so of lean body mass?20 more pounds of muscle! The animals were given Ipriflavone for a period ranging from 1 to 4 months, while their diet was not changed. In other words, calorie intake does not necessarily have to be increased in order to maintain the gains in mass due to the increased efficiency in processing food.Another test was conducted to determine actual differences in strength and endurance in which animals were weighed down with an additional 3 grams per 100 grams of bodyweight in a swimming test forced to exhaustion. Over a 45 day period, calories were kept the same for both the Ipriflavone-consuming and non-Ipriflavone-consuming groups. The results speak for themselves: the animals on Ipriflavone were able to swim for 33 minutes longer than the untreated animals before going under for good! This conclusive experiment shows the incredible ergogenic effects of this potent anabolic compound. Ipriflavone dramatically increases endurance!Yet another study indicated the level of anabolic activity of Ipriflavone by measuring the effect on calcium and phosphate retention; minerals indicative of such activity. The dosage used was 20 mg per kilogram of bodyweight. Guess what? Calcium and phosphorus retention increased significantly, which is one of the main reasons many countries are using it to treat osteoporosis. Even in conditions of osteoporosis, bone mass has been shown to increase.The human studies conducted with wasting patients showed an increase in lean body weight anywhere between 2 to 3 kilograms in merely a few weeks on Ipriflavone. The anabolic effects are apparently not confined to just animals, but are extraordinary in humans as well. The safety of Ipriflavone was confirmed on animals when mega-doses where given to them. Up to 4000 mg per kilogram were applied with absolutely zero side effects. Rather, they just gained more lean muscle!The final test was conducted on nitrogen retention because as you know, a positive nitrogen balance is the key to dramatically increasing muscle growth. The findings were based on the test results on the 20th to 30th day of the study. Nitrogen excretion was lowered by a considerable amount, confirming the power and anabolism of Ipriflavone!Now that you've got an idea of the amazing anabolic power of 7-Isopropoxyisoflavone (Ipriflavone), you can really appreciate 5-methyl-7-methoxy-isoflavone (Methoxyisoflavone) because of the two super anabolic compounds-get this-the second is more powerful than the first. Studied during the same time period as Ipriflavone, Methoxyisoflavone's scientific data definitely impressed the government to justify issuing a patent for it. As it turns out, Methoxyisoflavone is perhaps the most potent legal anabolic compound ever-with no side effects! Some of the findings include:In the same levator ani test used for Ipriflavone, results confirmed that Methoxyisoflavone was more anabolic than both Ipriflavone and anabolic steroids! All the while, no androgenic side effects occurred whatsoever with Methoxyisoflavone.Again, regardless of species, lean body mass increased significantly within 30 days accompanied by an increased state of vitality; while producing no androgenic effects and no endocrine tissue alteration! In terms we can all appreciate, this compound has been shown to increase muscle mass and size, while also making you feel better.As with Ipriflavone, the human studies conducted yielded excellent results. Cortisol levels were reduced in wasting patients, while phosphorus, calcium, potassium, and nitrogen levels increased considerably. What does all this mean? Simple-More Muscle!From these studies, researchers have concluded that identical doses of anabolic steroids do not compare to Methoxyisoflavone in anabolism! HOLY COW! Consider the differences... both cause muscle growth, but with Methoxyisoflavone the androgenic side effects are non-existent.What we've learned is that not only does Ipriflavone and Methoxyisoflavone work, but they work well... and not just for animals, for humans as well. What's better, these highly anabolic compounds work through different metabolic pathways, making them the perfect stack to take together! They work synergistically to produce even better results! The powerful protein synthesizing properties and nitrogen retaining effects can be amplified even further in this manner! Gain more lean mass, increase strength, recovery times, bone mass, and induce a greater state of vitality with these powerful flavones. All the while without worries of androgenic side-effects.Who needs it?And what are some symptoms of deficiency? Anyone who wants to boost their lean muscle gains should consider this breakthrough product! Flavones are even safe and effective for women. For males, if you're testosterone levels are in the normal range, which they probably are, and if you're diet is good, then these powerful anabolic flavones are definitely for you! Without a doubt, these are currently the bodybuilding supplement of choice. It's no accident that nearly every supplement company around is now producing their own ipriflavone and methoxyisoflavone-containing products. Results are a definitive, whether it will work mildly or extremely well for you is to be discovered?but one thing is certain?it works! Since flavones are not associated with deficiency, there are no symptoms, except not being as muscularly lean as you could be!How much should be taken?Are there any side effects? The recommended serving size of 5-methyl-7-methoxy-isoflavone so far is anywhere from 400mg to 800mg taken in a split dosage twice throughout the day (200mg - 400mg twice daily). Ipriflavone is recommended to be taken in the range of 250mg to 1250mg per day in divided doses.What are some Awesome Supplements to Stack with these Flavones?Methoxyisoflavone and/or ipriflavone work very well by themselves. However, if you really want to peak out your gains try stacking Methoxyisoflavone with Protein. Methoxy works incredibly well with protein because forces nutrients such as glycogen and protein into muscle cells. If there is no protein to use, it will not be as effective. So remember to take your Methoxy with protein for best results. A recent breakthrough that is similar to Methoxyisoflavone has just been released to the market by several pioneering supplement companies. The compound? Ecdysterone!Ecdysterone works synergistically with methoxyisoflavone to increase protein synthesis, maintain a positive nitrogen balance and keep your body in an anabolic state with no hormonal interactions whatsoever. Also, if you want to increase your testosterone levelsnaturally to the max, then try stacking them withZMA. Make great gains!

Oupa, is that really the cold, hard truth about it?
Is there no way to keep the gains regardless of training after a cycle?
Hearing this really steers me away from doing a cycle.

Oupa wrote: The mistake everybody make is when they gain 8kg's on cycle.... they think its about 6kg muscle and 2kg water........ when its actually only 7.5kg of nothing but water that will be lost in a few weeks after your cycle anyway.

To gain 500g permanent pure muscle per cycle is absolutely amazing results, hardly possible, but for some with good genetics, possible to keep and maintain.

Oupa wrote: To gain 500g permanent pure muscle per cycle is absolutely amazing results, hardly possible, but for some with good genetics, possible to keep and maintain.

Is this regardless of of training experience and how much progress you have made?

I have seen a fair few state that their strength has gone up quite a bit while on cycle. When done with the cycle their strength drops but they are still quite a bit stronger than they were prior to their cycle?
Would that 500g of muscle make such a difference in strength?


I can understand picking up that little bit of muscle if you have been training for years and done multiple cycles. Although someone who is new to cycling, surely they'd gain more actual muscle?

Most guys gain alot of water and bodyfat on cycle and mistake it for muscle.

That is why we always say get your bodyfat as low as possible pre cycle with 15% being the max.
Then have your Body Fat % taken every 2weeks to see where you are at.