Cycle Problems Test Prop/Var/Win

Hi Guys,

**STATS BELLOW**

To cut a long story short here –

Started off at 118kg with possibly more than 35% BF wearing size 40 jeans - I was a fat lazy azz slob. I’ve been working on getting my weight down now for almost 2 years and have since become a serious gym enthusiast. I’m unfortunately one of the guys to be born with bad genes which needs to put in double the amount of time and effort to get limited results and have even gone as far as getting a coach/trainer/nutritionist to work out my diet, check my measurements and bf on a bi-weekly basis and make sure that my routine and the rest is on track.

Decided to go the Steroids route to help just break my plateau that I was stuck on, but I’m not sure if that was the right thing to do as I’m experiencing some effects that I wasn’t expecting – yes I know they aren’t supper pills and jabs that transforms you into a beast overnight and takes time and effort to work.

The coach suggested for a cutting cycle and to see if that might kickstart things that I go onto an 8 week Anavar cycle. It worked for the first 2 weeks with clear definition happening, 1% BF drop, 1.8kg fat drop and about 1kg muscle gain and then it just stopped. So, we decided to up the dosage and add some test to it to get some more build and definition going.

When I took my first Test P jab I got some serious PIP, my butt just didn’t want to work with my legs and it took me close to 5 mins to get in and out of my bakkie for about 3 days and leg days was a b*tch. I understand that nothing to be done about that really and buttercup just needs to suck it up and its getting better after the 3rd injection. Using an Electro Muscle stim machine that I smack onto the glutes before bed– tends to give some relief. I also use Cataflam and Myprodol for pain relief when it really gets bad.

I was a bit fluish the day before my first injection and started with some Vit C powder, Immune booster (Airmune) and a B12 complex injection but the day after my Test P Injection it felt like I was past dead and just waiting to be put into the ground – not sure if I had possible Test Flu or what but I was knocked on my ass and slept for 24 hours straight through and had to change the bedding twice from the sweat of the fever I ran. Felt better afterwards, then I took my 2nd shot and a few hours later I was feeling like a corpse again. Stuck it out once again, got better, took 3rd shot, felt crap again, got better and took my 4th shot last night, still feeling crappie but not as bad as the first 3 shots.

What is seriously concerning me is that in this 8 days of being on the Test P I have gained 5kg’s and definitely lost definition (2cm gained around my waist) with ZERO deviation from my eating regiment as well as my workouts – I was dying and crying but I was lifting and squatting. As far as I can tell neither the Var or Test P is supposed to hold water back or have such results.

Has anyone else experienced large weight gain during their first few days on Test P and is it expected to experience the fluish symptoms after each injection?

ANY comments, critique or suggestions will be greatly appreciated.


Current Info:
Age: 34
Length 1.85
BF%: 14%
Weight: 86.6kg (Pre Test P)- Weight this morning was 91.2kg

Daily Diet intake:
Energy: 1850kj
Protein: 224g
Carbs: 90g
Sugar: 20g
Total Fat: 45g

Daily Diet Format:
Pre-Workout: Muscle Grow Shake
Post Workout: Tri Whey Shake + Banana
Breakfast: 6 Egg Whites + 2 Whole egg
3 Protein Snacks during the day – Meat balls or Chicken Strips
Lunch: 100g Protein (Hake, Chicken or Mince) + 100 Sweet Potato
Dinner: 150g Protein (Chicken) + 100g Spinach or Broccoli

Weekly Workout Regime:
3 x Heavy Cardio 1 Hour – Spinning classes at night
4 x Bootcamp 1 Hour (I’ve been roped into leading the boot camp classes so changed it up to 70% high-intensity weights sessions with about 30% Cardio and Strength)
3 x Weight Training Sessions 1:30 hours



Cycle (1st ever):
I’ve done 4 weeks of Anavar starting from 40mg per day working up to 80mg per day.
Started with week 5 now and stacking going forward as follows:
6 Week Cycle
100ml Test Prop EOD – Week 5 to 11
100mg Anavar ED – (Week 5 to Week 7 – 3 weeks total)
50mg Winstrol ED (Week 8 to 11 – 3 weeks total)
20mg Nolvadex – (Week 5 to 11 – 3 weeks)

PTC Still to be decided on

**Cycle was prescribed to me by my coach**

Hi and welcome.

What lab are you using?

Anavar - ASL Pharma
Prop, Nolva and Win - Ciccone

Test P has by far had the most PIP from any substance I've injected. Pain is a definite with Test P, also it's your fist cycle, there is a concept of 'virgin muscles', although I don't really buy into it there is a definite reduction of the amount of PIP experienced once you've injected a site on a more regular basis.

PGW's Test Prop is as painless as it gets, I haven't used any Ciccone products, so can't comment on that.

Also check that injections are being properly administered. Not sure who injects you.

You're right that VAR doesn't hold water, but Test Prop definitely does. 5kg in a week is on the high side, but I wouldn't rule it out especially as you seem to note an amount of bloat. I often fluctuated 2kg a day on cycle and my wight is in the same range as yours.

Seeing as you've lost a ton of weight you're obviously knowledgeable of what works for you. The amount of cardio in your routine seems excessive to me from a bodybuilding point of view. Then again it might be because I would hate life if I did that. I also don't know if you're one of those weekend running/cycling type of guys, in which case it could make sense. For me if I want to drop from 12-15% BF range I reduce calories and add 20 min interval cardio after weight sessions 3/4 times a week.

Question, why are you using Nolva on cycle? Nolva on hand for gyno flare up sure, but if you're trying to control e there are things designed for that purpose.

I like to be straight forward, otherwise I feel I am fucking over a fellow mate with the same goals as myself.

No comment on your coach, I don't believe he is setting you in the correct direction.

Can we have some clear goals (yours), and some pics - no need to feel shy we all started somewhere plus nobody knows who you are. The info I got from this site, Admin/ Addict/ Oups/ Pump/ Rabbit made me what I am now. So divulge (disclose), and we can assist greatly. Make you the muscle freak you want to be. We are here to assist.

bamiam wrote: Test P has by far had the most PIP from any substance I've injected. Pain is a definite with Test P, also it's your fist cycle, there is a concept of 'virgin muscles', although I don't really buy into it there is a definite reduction of the amount of PIP experienced once you've injected a site on a more regular basis.

PGW's Test Prop is as painless as it gets, I haven't used any Ciccone products, so can't comment on that.

Also check that injections are being properly administered. Not sure who injects you.

You're right that VAR doesn't hold water, but Test Prop definitely does. 5kg in a week is on the high side, but I wouldn't rule it out especially as you seem to note an amount of bloat. I often fluctuated 2kg a day on cycle and my wight is in the same range as yours.

Seeing as you've lost a ton of weight you're obviously knowledgeable of what works for you. The amount of cardio in your routine seems excessive to me from a bodybuilding point of view. Then again it might be because I would hate life if I did that. I also don't know if you're one of those weekend running/cycling type of guys, in which case it could make sense. For me if I want to drop from 12-15% BF range I reduce calories and add 20 min interval cardio after weight sessions 3/4 times a week.

Question, why are you using Nolva on cycle? Nolva on hand for gyno flare up sure, but if you're trying to control e there are things designed for that purpose.

Plus 1.

Aggree with what bamiam said and Fillet.

Thanks for the feedback guys!

Bamiam

I inject myself - perks of being a BAA many many years ago. The last injection site is still a bit on the eish eina side but is much more tolerable than the first batch.

Cardio - I'm considering dropping the spinning to only twice a week and rescheduling the slot for another weight sesion. Wondering if the fact that I increased my Cardio to such a level that it might actually have a negative effect and is costing me muscle and increasing fat storage.

Nolvadex - Honestly, I'm also confused as to why. Got the schedule from the coach like that and presumed there was a valid reason although my own research showed its not needed yet and may be needed in the PCT.

Fillet
Goals... Honestly I'm not sure if my goals are realistic but what I have in mind is:

Belly fat% 10%> (currently 20%)
Boddy Fat 12%>(currently 15%)
Lean muscle gain - 5 to 8 kg

Ill post some photos as soon as I can figure out how to post the damn things.

I also suspect more and more that I'm retaining water - input does not closely equal output - 4L of fluid only gave me two whip out opertunities. O and my feet and ankles look like it's one solid piece of meat. Any advice to get rid of it?

Cheers guys and thanks!

FIllet wrote: I like to be straight forward, otherwise I feel I am fucking over a fellow mate with the same goals as myself.

No comment on your coach, I don't believe he is setting you in the correct direction.

Can we have some clear goals (yours), and some pics - no need to feel shy we all started somewhere plus nobody knows who you are. The info I got from this site, Admin/ Addict/ Oups/ Pump/ Rabbit made me what I am now. So divulge (disclose), and we can assist greatly. Make you the muscle freak you want to be. We are here to assist.

I feel like you missed someone amazing there, who (used to) give a shit about you..

Rodza wrote: Thanks for the feedback guys!

Bamiam

I inject myself - perks of being a BAA many many years ago. The last injection site is still a bit on the eish eina side but is much more tolerable than the first batch. You were a Business Analyst Advisororer?

Cardio - I'm considering dropping the spinning to only twice a week and rescheduling the slot for another weight sesion. Wondering if the fact that I increased my Cardio to such a level that it might actually have a negative effect and is costing me muscle and increasing fat storage. Definately the case seeing that you eat so little. You would need at least 3000 cals per day to build muscle proporly. Once you get to this point we can tweak your cardio levels.

Nolvadex - Honestly, I'm also confused as to why. Got the schedule from the coach like that and presumed there was a valid reason although my own research showed its not needed yet and may be needed in the PCT.
Old school this, before they invented AI's. You should definately know how an AI works (Aromatase Inhibitor) before using steroids otherwise you will grow yourself a set of manboobs.

Fillet Guy I used to care about but he dissed me and now I don't at all anymore.
Goals... Honestly I'm not sure if my goals are realistic but what I have in mind is:

Belly fat% 10%> (currently 20%) :huh: ??
Boddy Fat 12%>(currently 15%)
Lean muscle gain - 5 to 8 kg

Ill post some photos as soon as I can figure out how to post the damn things. There is a sticky on this just have a look in the General section.

I also suspect more and more that I'm retaining water - input does not closely equal output - 4L of fluid only gave me two whip out opertunities. O and my feet and ankles look like it's one solid piece of meat. Any advice to get rid of it? Use an AI like Arimidex to control the estrogen causing this.

Cheers guys and thanks!

Terrible cycle hey- typical crap you hear from PT's. The other members here will assist you and hopefully you see you need to do a lot more reading here before going on with this cycle. Most important is your liver support as you are using too much of orals.

Firstly going on a Var only cycle is a recipe for disaster. While it will mildly shut you down it will still shut you down. My guess your progress stopped because your natural T levels dropped. First warning sign that your coach is ill informed. Second, you don’t mention what you do during the weight training sessions but given all the cardio and bootcamp miy guess is you are,tired and probably can’t push enough. Too much cardio for the diet you are on -you ain’t going to build muscle easily. When I transitioned from endurance athlete at 65kg (skinny fat and fast) to bodybuilding I struggled progressing because I couldn’t let go of the high volume cardio (more must be better

Pyroclasm wrote:

Rodza wrote: Thanks for the feedback guys!

Bamiam

I inject myself - perks of being a BAA many many years ago. The last injection site is still a bit on the eish eina side but is much more tolerable than the first batch. You were a Business Analyst Advisororer? - Basic Ambulance assistant/medic

Cardio - I'm considering dropping the spinning to only twice a week and rescheduling the slot for another weight sesion. Wondering if the fact that I increased my Cardio to such a level that it might actually have a negative effect and is costing me muscle and increasing fat storage. Definately the case seeing that you eat so little. You would need at least 3000 cals per day to build muscle proporly. Once you get to this point we can tweak your cardio levels. I'm opting to add in a few extra protein snacks during the day to increase to 3000 for a while and revert back

Nolvadex - Honestly, I'm also confused as to why. Got the schedule from the coach like that and presumed there was a valid reason although my own research showed its not needed yet and may be needed in the PCT.
Old school this, before they invented AI's. You should definately know how an AI works (Aromatase Inhibitor) before using steroids otherwise you will grow yourself a set of manboobs.

Fillet Guy I used to care about but he dissed me and now I don't at all anymore.
Goals... Honestly I'm not sure if my goals are realistic but what I have in mind is:

Belly fat% 10%> (currently 20%) :huh: ?? Want to get the belly fat bellow 10% Always had a tube arround the waist
Boddy Fat 12%>(currently 15%)
Lean muscle gain - 5 to 8 kg

Ill post some photos as soon as I can figure out how to post the damn things. There is a sticky on this just have a look in the General section.

I also suspect more and more that I'm retaining water - input does not closely equal output - 4L of fluid only gave me two whip out opertunities. O and my feet and ankles look like it's one solid piece of meat. Any advice to get rid of it? Use an AI like Arimidex to control the estrogen causing this. Suggested dossis and where I can get? Seems the general concensus is .5g ED?

Cheers guys and thanks!

Terrible cycle hey- typical crap you hear from PT's. The other members here will assist you and hopefully you see you need to do a lot more reading here before going on with this cycle. Most important is your liver support as you are using too much of orals.

Thanks for the great feedback and info - what will be the best option for liver support?

Morrgear wrote: Firstly going on a Var only cycle is a recipe for disaster. While it will mildly shut you down it will still shut you down. My guess your progress stopped because your natural T levels dropped. First warning sign that your coach is ill informed. Second, you don’t mention what you do during the weight training sessions but given all the cardio and bootcamp miy guess is you are,tired and probably can’t push enough. Too much cardio for the diet you are on -you ain’t going to build muscle easily. When I transitioned from endurance athlete at 65kg (skinny fat and fast) to bodybuilding I struggled progressing because I couldn’t let go of the high volume cardio (more must be better

Workout consist of both free weights, machines and some resistance band work - Medium to High weights with Low to medium rep sets. Fan of supersets with ending with something like walking 20min on treadmill with weights (10kg per side - incline 6 and speed about 2.2)

You are right in saying that the mind is stuck in the "more cardio means better results" because I did loads of cardio to drop the majority of my weight. The previous bootcamp trainer had the previous split of cardio vs strength/muscle at about 50/50,but since I've taken over I've changed it to 30/70 with more focus on heavier muscle work.

Will the Test P help with replacing T or what will your suggestion be to save this cycle?

I don't have much more to add to the advice given.

First thing, prior (weeks/months before) do your research of a cycle that fits your goals and come here to hash out the details. I've done close to 10 cycles and this is still my approach. You learn shit over time, but there's always someone who knows more...

Get your body composition in check. This doesn't only mean dropping fat but gain some foundation muscle as a solid base. The best and easiest way to keep body fat down in the long term is to add muscle. More muscle equals more calories burnt just to maintain your frame.

IAs are tricky probably more so than most gear. What I mean is it's very dependent on the individual and you'll need to find the right dose to maintain the correct balance. You want to maintain and in some instances reduce estrogen, but you don't always want to kill production completely. Only way to do this scientifically is to get the blood work done.

On a side note, your PT is a tool, he might be a nice guy, but being a nice guy isn't going to make much difference if he fcks up his clients. These ass fcks really rub me the wrong way, have met a handful of knowledgeable PTs in around 15 years of training. The point for you to digest is don't take the advice of the first mf who appears or pretends to know what he's talking about.

Esseniale/Cruciale immediately up to 2 weeks after last tablet taken. No alcohol.

Pyroclasm wrote: Esseniale/Cruciale immediately up to 2 weeks after last tablet taken. No alcohol.

I did. Sorry my brother.

Thanks for all the feedback guys, seems that I have been gullible with people that I have believed to be knowledgeable in these fields - once again, it seems that I need to listen to my gut feelings and start questioning, researching more myself and doing some serious reevaluation.

I'm busy re-evaluating my calorie intake and by preliminary findings, I'm about 1200 calories off - Bussy pulling up a spreadsheet with all the formulas and crap in - will post it here for further comment.

Pyroclasm - Understood captain - NO BOOZE, cheap drunk anyway - half a beer and I'm p*ss*d these days.

I've attached some progress photos for feedback.

My biggest question at the moment is - is this cycle that I'm on at the moment salvageable, should I continue with it or take a break and restart a new one in a month or so?

Rodza wrote: Thanks for all the feedback guys, seems that I have been gullible with people that I have believed to be knowledgeable in these fields - once again, it seems that I need to listen to my gut feelings and start questioning, researching more myself and doing some serious reevaluation.[/img]

This right here is why I choose to spend time on this site. If taking wrong advice didn't really matter I wouldn't bother, but with AAS you can do serious permanent damage and grow proper titties.

Have some karma for your progress. Keep it up dude! +1

OK, so update on progress -
Pyroclasm
1. Started with Essential. Two in the morning and two in the evening with my Var.
2. Went and had a look at IA - seems like Aromasin is the best option from the IA group to run trough cycle and PCT as it doesn't re-act negatively with Nolvadex during PCT as like Arimadex which cancels each other out. Most of the info that I gathered is that 12.5mg EOD for estrogen control should be a good starting point and then adjusting as my body responds.

If this does sound right - which is the best route to go to get/buy as I'm not sure that I want to go trough my coach again.

I started splitting my Test P at 50mg ED switching between glutes and Vast-lats. Pip is still there but not as bad as 100mg EOD. Also got knocked into my ass for about 3 days with some serious flu. Suspect test-flu as it started a few hours after 100mg pin. Same time frame and feeling as my first test-flu but just shit load worse. Slept 48 hours right trough. Any one else experienced a weird smell when hitting a fever on Prop? My sweat didn't smell like my normal odour, I smelled like the Prop itself. Had a good wiff of it as I had to change beading twice due to the sweat and fever. :sick: (ye, ye, TMI I know)

Bamiam - your right, seems my coach is a "tool" and me even more so for following blindly. I've found some reading material to study up. Anything specific reading material you can suggest? Forums seems to be great for general advice, but there are quite often loads of conflicting views and opinions that confuses the shit out of us noob.

I've started upping my calorie intake to 3000 and protein to 200 so will see how it goes this week.

Tx!

*May your squats be forever deep!*

On the AI, not sure how you've interpreted your 'cancels each other out' comment, because adex and nolva do very different things. Adex and Aromasin are also very different in how they control e, but you should read up on that as you go along. Adex is great at controlling e for most people, as I mentioned people often react differently to these meds, personally I prefer using Aromasin. On your current cycle I'd suggest trying 25mg Aromasin every third day and increase that to every second day if any estrogen sides become apparent.

Sorry can't help you with any source to purchase, against forum rules, which you should familiarize yourself with as well.

I personally think 2 essential a day is sufficient with the var and you can add two more once you start the winny. Also, some guys don't mind, but I prefer not taking liver support with my orals as there is some indication that the support tabs could influence the absorption of the orals. So take orals and essential about 4hours apart.

As for forums and bullshit, you'll get this wherever you go. Even the best sites etc are full of crap you need to ignore. Just learn to take most things with a pinch of salt and most importantly, your body is the best indicator of what's happening. I'm very pro trying everything, but in saying that i believe you need to be as informed as possible before you do, so you know how to deal with shit that comes with trying new stuff, and most of us have experienced our share of shit sides. You research, learn, experiment, learn, ask, learn.

Good luck

Rodza wrote: If this does sound right - which is the best route to go to get/buy as I'm not sure that I want to go trough my coach again.

Read the rules please no asking for sources.

Use Aromasin during PCT instead of the other AI's. Remember you still have Nolva in there which is also good at stoppig gyno. You will use Aromaisin to ensure that after the Nolva is finished you don't have estrogen rebound.