TRT HCG Dose + Frequency - E2 problems

Hi All. I am on TRT (40 y/o)

My current regimen, slapped together after research on the interweb is:

1) Test Cyp 37.5 mg E3D
2) HCG 250 IU's E3D

I have been on this course since the beginning of the year. I cannot seem to control my E2 levels. (labs done every couple of weeks, anastrozole does not seem to make a dent, thus it was discontinued).

Been reading up on how to combat the high E2 and I see that, even though it is a highly individual response, HCG can / will elevate E2 levels, especially in the testes, along with normal aromatization of the Test Cyp in the peripheries resulting in high E2 levels...To add insult to injury, I understand that an AI cannot / will not reduce the HCG induced increase in E2.

I would prefer to keep HCG in the treatment for the aesthetics of it all, as well as trying to keep the bodily processes on the go.

My question is, how can I change my HCG dose / frequency in order to obtain the benefits of including it in my HRT, but ridding myself of the E2 sides?

I can remember, in the past, whilst attempting a restart, I dosed a "healthy" 1500 IU's of HCG in order to "shock" the testes back into production and all that that got me was an immediate bad mood and roller coaster emotions. These experiences lead me to believe that I may be an over-responder of sorts to HCG.

In light of all of this, I was thinking to stop with the HCG E3D and to pin 250 IU's only once a week to see how I react and to see if E2 will come down some?

Does that sound like a plan or am I wasting my time? Should I drop the HCG completely for a 4 week period, let E2 stabilize that way and introduce HCG back into the mix, one day / week at a time and judge from there?

In your estimation, how long would E2 take to stabilize sans HCG?

Thanks in advance Chaps/ettes

O

Sorry guys, the dosing protocol above is incorrect, as it stands it should read EOD...

Monday morning
Wednesday afternoon
Friday evening.

Rinse n repeat...

Stop using hCG.

Thanks Pump.

May I ask why? Is the use of hCG unnecessary / overkill ? I was under the impression (wrongly perhaps) that we should make us of hCG to ensure that pregnenolone etc. is still produced?

Many users of hCG whilst on TRT attested to the mood boost that they get, I can't say the same...perhaps I am one of those un / lucky ones that cannot or should not use hCG.

Thanks, I look forward to your input..

Cheers

Don't self medicate, don't take advice from bro science with things like this if there is no clinical trial to motivate the information. It's impossible for me to advise how often to take the hCG, but maybe once every 3 months ? Only blood tests can determine what you need to do. And of all things you should be worrying about the increase in RBC which is well documented and clinical trials available to back the concern of long term TRT treatment.

Thanks Pump...

Okay, reading Pump's curt responses over and over again, I came to the conclusion that his answers could be curt because this is the umpteenth time that he has posted that, or, more likely, he is a bit peeved because I have taken bro science advice and have a been a tad irresponsible... :blink:

Therefore, I will take the following course of action:

1) Stop using the hCG immediately.
2) From what I can gather, the effects of the hCG should be gone within 8 days or so? After that period of time, or longer, has passed I will have bloods done
3) I am thinking TT, FT & E2. Is there anything else that I should have a look at?
4) This will then give me a base line of where I am re hormone levels, especially E2 as this is my concern from my previous labs and "symptoms"

Thoughts? Better course of action?

Cheers.

See what some of the other guys advise. Don't take my advice alone.

I have been on self subscribed TRT for the past year and half and no problems so far. I did a blood test 6 months ago and all was fine guess it is time for another test again. I use 1 ml PGW testosterone cyp a week, I have letrozole on hand byt hardly use it. Still have the once off purple colour one that was made and now about a quarter left. Forget to add I am currently 43 years old and I used to use HCG month on and month off but stopped it a year ago. At first I got pain in groin area down to my legs due to balls shrinking but this lasted about a month and then it stabilised with no pain. It does hang quite high but this you will have to life with. TRT just my life and health to the best condition I have ever been.

Thanks for your input Triton, always good to hear from other okes travelling the same path...grab some karma

I must say, I am curious to see what will happen if I drop the hcg..the E2 sides are horrendous.

Will see what happens from here on out...

Hi All, dropped the hCG for 4 weeks, re-tested and my E2 is still high....

What is the way forward regarding E2 control?

I have resorted to reducing my TEst Cyp dose by 20% seeing as I am in the upper limit of the range I have so space to play with, but I am not sure that this reduction will cause enough of a reduction in E2...

Anastrozole seems to me, to be difficult to keep E2 levels stable. Would Aromasin be any better seeing as it avoids the rebound effect?

Help, please, help. :dry: 8 months of TRT and no real benefit yet...eish

Is my problem perhaps that I am using anastrozole EOD, should I rather be dosing it ED? Starting with, say, 0.3mg's/day?

how much anatrozole are you using?

Thanks for the interest D.

I started with 1mg / w, divided into doses with every pin, and tried adjusting from there...

I'm also on TRT for almost 3 years now.

Initially had some problems with high E2, used anastrazol which worked ok but I still suffered from some rebound when reducing the dose of anastrazol. Switched to Aromasin (with test enanth) and it made a huge difference.

Hope this helps.

Ex amateur BB / BB weekend warrior, now crossfit 48 years old, BF varies between 6 and 8%. Physical performance is way above most half my age :whistle: , basically in the shape of my life.

OupaHans wrote: Thanks for the interest D.

I started with 1mg / w, divided into doses with every pin, and tried adjusting from there...

You're on such a low dose of testosterone so you should not need much anastrozole. 0.25mg EOD should do the job. It is very potent.

What was your Total Test and E2 when you did your last blood test?

Hi Guys, many thanks for your interest.

@EarthLeader: I had heard that some people are getting "better" results using Aromasin to control E2 whilst on TRT...Most that struggled when using arimidex say it was the change they needed to feel the benefit of TRT...I am glad that it worked for you, if you don't mind, could you perhaps shed some light on how you use the Aromasin? (when, how much, the form of the Aromasin (capsule, liquid etc) etc...)

@Muscleaddict: I agree with you re the low dose of T...but it seems that I have an aromatization problem, probably due to 25% bf. When attempting a restart with 250 IU hCG 3*week and 20mg Aromasin ED my T went up modestly and my E2 stayed stable

Before:

TT: 6.7 nmol/L (>12)
FT: 196 pmol /L (180 - 739)
E2: 72 pmol /L (40 - 161)

After:

TT: 10.1 nmol/L (>12)
FT: 292 pmol /L (180 - 739)
E2: 78 pmol /L (40 - 161)

Seeing as there was no real improvement (i.e. into mid / high range) I was advised that I am primary and should not waste my time with Clomid & Nolva and go straight to TRT.

At last test after 50mg Testocyp 3*week only my readings were:

TT: 30.2 nmol/L (>12)
FT: 992 pmol/L (180 - 739)
E2: 139 pmol/L (40 - 161)

Now, the E2 level is in range, but it is higher than the 90 - 100 level that I was told would be just about optimum...
With my E2 in that range, I do not really have a libido, but I have no problem getting & maintaining wood. In fact, I experience intermittent wood during sleep as well as when I wake up.

Now for the rub...with my last two injections I have made use of !3! drops of arimidex with each pin and after my 2nd pin on Monday morning my mood stability has decreased, along with, my nocturnal and waking wood!!! Telling me that E2 is too low...eish.

I don't see those readings being a problem at all.

I agree, if it depended on numbers only...but how I feel is more important than numbers and ranges...not so? Chasing numbers is exactly where I am at in order to try and get the benefit of the TRT, that is what makes this a little frustrating.

@oupahans I use the pharma grade Aromasin, called "Aromasin" strangely enough as its available OTC here (I don't live in SA at the moment but travel back frequently on business). The tabs only come in 25mg and I usually take 12.5 MG EOD or E3D depending on my test dosing (which I vary slightly throughout the year intentionally).

In your case it might be wise if you decide to go that route, to start at 10mg EOD for the first week, and then switch to 5mg EOD and see how you feel. Tweak it from there. Others with more experience can probably give you more sound advice, but this is what I would do in your situation.

From my understanding Aromasin permanently blocks / binds to the aromatase enzyme making it more effective as your body takes a while produce more enzyme over time. Other AI's temporarily block the enzyme, which allows a rebound effect if the AI is discontinued as the enzyme becomes unbound, free to do its bad magic. :evil:

Rebound isn't really an issue for those on TRT because they're never coming off, but aromasin is probably the best AI considering it is generally less harsh on lipids - the impact on cholesterol is one of the concerns of TRT.

This is also interesting - www.musculardevelopment.com/articles/che...ts.html#.V7zeefl96M8

Where's your bodyfat at, Oupahans?

@Earthleader, thanks for your kind reply and the information.

TBH, looking at the figures I posted up top, I am hoping that if I reduce my T dose that my E2 will follow suit. I have "some" headroom if you look at TT & FT to come down some... however if T is lowered SHBG will invariably go up so a bit of a double edged sword. I would prefer not to use an AI if at all possible, but we will see. I have already reduced my dose, but TestCyp has such a long half life, I would have to wait about 6 weeks before doing BW again.

As I mentioned in my reply to pump, chasing numbers is driving me batty, if I could feel GOOD then the numbers are a "nice to know"...strange thing is, I have not had that honeymoon period or have never gone through the "sweet spot" since starting TRT...

@Eidolon, thanks for your reply too. I am not sure what my BF is exactly but it is in the region of about 25% I believe. I am 45, 5'11", 114 Kg's at the moment, heavily built you might say. I blame it on my solid bones :blink: :woohoo: I am prone to MPB, but I started very early in my late 20's and have been bald since my early 30's

There is many more factors that affect libido than just E2