Opinoin?

Is there any other way to get decent results without the use of anabolic s the reason im asking is there's bunch of 18+ guys at my gym pumping them full of shit that they know nothing about by the looks of it and while they are on the juice they look good and when they go off it they lose all their gains unfortunately i can not get a hold of all the stuff i need to start a decent cycle and neither can they although it doesn't phase the idiots much hope i didn't brake any rules or pissed in someones cornflakes by asking this thnks

Obviously you will never get the same results as someone on anabolics but that been said it is still possible to make decent gains doing it natty until you get hold of all you need for a well structured cycle. Just eat and add some creatine and whey and look harder for the stuff you need for a proper cycle. Good luck

Maximus542 wrote: Is there any other way to get decent results without the use of anabolic s the reason im asking is there's bunch of 18+ guys at my gym pumping them full of shit that they know nothing about by the looks of it and while they are on the juice they look good and when they go off it they lose all their gains unfortunately i can not get a hold of all the stuff i need to start a decent cycle and neither can they although it doesn't phase the idiots much hope i didn't brake any rules or pissed in someones cornflakes by asking this thnks

Have a look at this guys website and video logs. Hes a drug free builder and has a phd in nutrition.

www.biolayne.com

How old are you bud? Stats? Training experience?

ill ma keep looking Kkkyle thanks for the interest though ,pr0gr3s1v3 the guy on the blog looks great but not really what im looking for to each his own but im looking for size i wanna grow and its starting to look like i wont get much further without anabolic s Im 26 Pyroclasm weighing 98KG (started dieting now)
been exercising real hard for the past two and a half years not planning on giving up real soon been following the old school routine(bulking through most of winter and dieting through summer) My training program goes as follow Mondays: Chest and Triceps with low intensity cardio
Tuesdays: Back, Biceps and Abs with low intensity cardio
Wednesday: off
Thursdays: Shoulders and Calves with low intensity cardio
Fridays: Legs and abbs with low intensity cardio
i do most of my routine in the 3 sets 8 reps range and ive been following this program from the start with decent results thus far never used any anabolic s got dianabols in my drawer but not enough for a cycle and cant find test. or any clomeds i do have a protine shake i use accordingly to my weight with creatine and glutamine together with a vitamin and amino acids i got from the local pharmacy
Diet wise ive experimented a lot and had great success with the palio diet when i was cutting

Paleo diet is excellent and great that it works for you bud! Bodyfat percentage? Diet?

Body fat at the end of my bulking phase was at 30 percent and at the end of my first cutting phase at 18 percent dont know now but im guessing it below 30 percent my diet consists of 4 meals a day first meal when i wake up is normally 2 baked eggs with a glass of low fat milk then at 9:15 i either eat a hard boiled egg with a chicken fillet or a tuna salad and an apple then at 12 i have 2 chicken fillets with a boiled egg then at half past 2 i eat my last meal witch is normally a snack like nuts then i have my shake before and after gym i follow this diet now when im dieting with a cheat day sometimes 2, im just human when i bulk i add pasta and rise to my diet and occasionally bread thats toasted cant afford any fancy diets and counting calories really don't work for me although i know most people live by it, i get frustrated. At the end of my first bulking session i weighed 103Kg(I know all of it was not lean muscle) and at the end of my cutting cycle i was at 92Kg (witch for me was a lot of effort to achieve)

Here's some tough love and how you take it up is your own business. Your diet is absolutely shit and you are gonna get nowhere with it. You cannot say that counting calories doesn't work for you because you haven't tried it properly. Counting calories according to every study I have ever read IS the end to it all. The reason you lost weight is because your calories were far under your total daily energy expenditure. And because one can only lose so much weight at a time, the other weight that you lost has to be muscle. When you say you get frustrated by calorie counting, how so? Is it not just laziness? There are also other ways to go about calorie counting. I don't count everything that goes into my mouth either but I have a very good idea of where I should be at at the end of the day.

You are on here talking about the fact that you think you need steroids to advance. Absolutely not!! You need food to advance. Food is the most anabolic substance on earth!

The reason why you struggled so much to lose weight is this- when we eat far under our energy requirements, our body has no choice but to slow down your metabolic rate to accomodate this stressful situation it is in. In your case you were eating even less calories than what just your organs would need to function, let alone energy required for physical activity. Then when your body slows down the metabolism like this, it will also try to keep as much as possible energy stores (fat) and try to eliminate things that require a lot of energy (muscle).

Some more tough love here- you say your bodyfat is around 30% that means at 98kg you only have a lean mass of 69kg.

Like pyro said your diet needs fixing. I would lose weight first then once at a low bodyfat start to lean bulk.

Have a look at the diet stickies. Make a diet, put it up and guys will assist you.

Oh and layne weighs in at 230pounds off season so hes really not small if you consider his "off season" bodyfat is probably lower than most of our on season.

lol ok will come back to you guys guess im up up for a though ride learning all this stuff reading trough all the calorie counting material in the past and all the other contradicting that calorie counting isn't a necessity (Probably BS then) were really tiresome but ill go through it again. Lazy maybe i am you know what they say ignorance is bliss i was convinced i wasn't that bad off with the diet i was on believe it or not measuring from time to time i was still growing without rapid changes in fat percentage this layne bloke looks good and im sure his big and all that cos he has his PHD in nutritional science and a list of other accomplishments so he knows what hes doing but im far from where he is and im not doing this for a living guess what i meant to say was i would just have liked to look more buffed than what im looking now with the given time and resources i have which i wish were more im serous about training and will try harder to get a hold and follow a diet but with all due respect im not a bodybuilder and im not contending in any contests soon im just a gym rat trying to look better for himself thanks for the "tough love" im going to lick my wounds now

Once you worked out you maint calorie needs its easy to adjust and tweek your diet so its really not that you need to count calories the whole time.

Food is expensive these days and even more so supplements, but if you shop around a little bit and go about its wisely it doesnt need to break the back each month.

No need to lick your wounds bud it wasn't meant to harm you. Just sometimes someone needs a little bit of a PK from the right oak to get him to wake up. We are here to help you at the end of the day so we are gonna help you with all your questions and one day you will look back at this and laugh.

Quality post Pyro and Prog Maximus mate, they're here to help and I've learnt a lot from both.. The fitness or bodybuilding lifestyle is difficult and not for people who aren't willing to put the effort in. Everything posted was in good faith and intention.

Ok so i have a BMI of 27.6 at 98kg and to go down to 24 i have to weigh 88kg so i need to loose 10 kg witch i can accomplish by mid January next year if consume about 2,391 calories per day so its about 1,464 calories in carbohydrates 717 calories in fat and 239 calories in protein each day now this is usually where i get stuck

My body fat is 12 percent now haven't had it measured for about a year and a half didn't think it could change that much but now im confused my bmi says im overweight and that to reach a 24 i need to weigh 88 kg (that's my goal that seems realistic) although i haven't weighed that since i was in high school how accurate is this bmi i mean im 6.03ft tall and weigh 98 kg it doesn't take in consideration that if been training for almost 3 years even without a proper diet i do look different if you understand what i mean if i take in the suggested calories per day would that not make me go in to a calorie deficit not even talking about bmi score of 21 witch is considered an ideal score witch would want me to weigh around 71 kg and even take in a lot less calories, I really wana give this a go but i also want to understand what im doing been reading through the diet stickys on this form that dj posted and the guy is really amazing working out all this kinda stuff but where do i get a diet for my specific needs and that is not going to cost a fortune to maintain and is a bit user friendly to start out on

BMI is a pot of BS so forget that. At 12% bodyfat you should be looking pretty good already. Your bodyfat I am also very sure is way off because you say you need to still lose about 10kgs. You should he at the 18-20% mark more or less. Regarding the diet I think you are confusing 239 calories of protein with 239g of protein which is about 960 calories.

A good diet is quite expensive but costs can be minimised by making certain sacrifices. Protein is normally the most expensive part by far, so aim for 150-200g protein per day from pure protein sources. Fats you can do cheaply by not eating nuts and so on and eating a lot of peanut butter. Carbs are normally cheap.

Ye at 12 percent you should have abs so loosing another 10kg would be almost impossible.

@Maximus

You will be amazed by the results you get from proper nutrition and training.

Yes it is possible to get a head turning physique naturally.

Sort out your diet and also post your usual training routine so we can tweak that too.

Once all these aspects are in place,only then can you start thinking of anabolics.

According to BMI im suppose to loose about 30 KG to be healthy i also thought they were on crack or sum thing that's why i wanted to loose 10Kg my abs are just stating to show but i didn't want to loose weight cos i don't really wanna lose size my profile pic was taken a few months back im not fat (well at least i don't think i am) but im not as big as i want to be either (on account of not having the proper diet i now know) is there a place on the internet that i can find a diet suited for me or should i go see a dietitian cos after a day of googling im feeling even dumber than yesterday

Honestly bud dieticians are not really going to be able to give you what we can give you. We are in the process of setting up a system where you can hire someone from the forum as your bodybuilding coach. I myself am like a little kid about this!

Dude work out your protein carb and fat requerements from the diet stickies its not rocket science until u want to go on stage then it becomes complicated and shouldnt cost a fortune
cutting back off on the carbs bulking increase the carbs use 6 meals 5 for cutting 7 for bulking ect ect if u want to get more serious then ask /pay one of the gurus to work it out for u ....

Im going to give try and devise my own diet and see how it goes when are this plan of of online couching becoming an reality and how much money are we looking at i know these people are normally not cheap to hire but if im able to afford it i would surly give it a go

I personally think its peanuts compared to the how much money you will spend on a cycle and a great coach will do you better than a cycle. Do some research bud even with a coach it is always helpful if your client has some background knowledge of their own. Can't discuss those prices for now.

thanks for the help though got a lot of reading to do will hit you up again when i think i got something worth looking at