Lean mass cycle that is not test based.

i have been contemplating my next cycle and i am keen to do a cycle that focuses on decent lean mass gains that are easily maintainable but doesnt contain test.

what are your views of a course of masteron,equipoise and anavar?

of equipoise anavar and winstrol?

what do u think would be a perfect length for a course of this nature? i see MXT's courses are about 42 days long (6weeks).

what are your views.

thanks

Easy

mmmmmm- not Test Based. Id prob look at something like EQ with Anavar- but I wont exceed a month- shut down will be severe and without Test and training will be tuff

see thing is i am looking for something that is easily maintained and from what i have seen from my mates taking test even with pct is they maintain about 60% of their gains... if i were to hit test with it would it be able to run for longer?and would low dosages of test say 100mg test prop a week will that be affective?

but this loss could also be from terrible dieting habits..hmmmmm

I'm new to this, but have read quite a bit and most write-ups on EQ state a min cycle of 12 weeks - only kicks in at +- week 7. 16 weeks seem to be preferred.
Test prop at 100mg/week wont do anything. 100 mg Test Prop EOD, 400 mg EQ/week, 30mg Anavar/day would be nice. (for my novice juice body at least). I actually considered this cycle but eventually settled for NPP/TestProp/Anavar.
Either way, this is a long-haul.
You dont want "the man" to look south either so test is a must.

this is very very true about the man down stairs,well i will take that into consideration jackrabbit,i guess asking questions is the best way of finding the right answer...

essentially i am looking to do a course where i can maintain +/-85% of the gains...

What were your buddies on? Maybe they just carried extra water?
Using shorter estered test would cut-out most of the water so you wont have the effect of "losing" your gains.
EQ, doesn't aromatise and therefore also no bloat. Same with NPP - no bloat like deca.
Anavar seems to enhance the effects of the other items in the stack so that would be a nice addition.
I fave the same goals as you. Consider these.

one guess dude...the most common test around,depotrone... hmmmm i am now thinking... NNP 300mg a week,20mg anavar daily,and 200mg test prop a week over how long?

i see saanabolic review have done a stack with deca 300mg and anavar 20mg daily for 10weeks,now that i believe would kill the man in the pants...

Im giving the following a go from later this week.
100 mg Test Prop EOD. 150mg NPP 4 days(Every Other Test P day), 30mg Anavar/Day.

I'll see how that goes and maybe push up the test a bit. Scared of the too much progesterone/Nandrolone and MIGHT have to swap the anavar for injectable winstrol to combat this a bit, but thats just backup and i dont expect any bad sides on such a lowish dose.

i swear thats exactly the next post i was going to put up,that dosages and the same injection every 4 days.

i would run 10mg of kessar everyday just to make sure the chances bitch tits are not there...

About low dose testosterone. Your body produces naturally about 55-60mg test per week - why do you then only want to use 100mg per week of an injectable with some of the 100mg weight taken up by an ester? You need super physiological test levels to grow! Personally, anything less than 400mg per week is a waste of time. Remember the 60mg(natural) per week is unbound to an ester! Depending on what ester you use, you may only get 300mg test from 400mg injection. That's only 5 x physiological level... Makes you stop and think about the subject of how much testosterone you actually should inject to grow... That's why most of the bigger athletes use in the region of 800mg injectable test per week.

Equi stacks nice with almost anything. Gains aren't huge, but are solid and very vascular gains, as well as strenght gains. Equi gains usually also hangs around longer.

Remember, that you will loose some weight post-cycle. You have very high levels of cortisol post-cycle and the more effective you combat this, the more of your gains you will keep.
The biggest enemy to any body builder post-cycle, is cortisol and its evil little side-kick, called oestrogen....

doc just a question,why is that people see decent gains on 1ml of sust250 a week? that means they only taking in 5 time their normal level...granted when stacked with deca the gains seem pretty good.

what do you think of running nandro-prop and test prop at 1 ml of each every 4 days with anavar as suggested by jackrabbit?must we add in 300mg of test enethate...

just a question doc,how do u stop the effects of cortisol or is that not gonna happen?

Thanks Doctari, will keep that in mind. The other thing is that i read somewhere that Anavar reduces SHBG quite significantly freeing up quite a bit of the bound test - therefore the enhancing effect.
Test Prop at 150-200 mg EOD seems to up my BP to be somewhat uncomfortable. For the next couple of weeks i will definately try to up it to around 150 or so. I want to see how the NPP combo effects me.
Im hitting 40 so i'm taking it easy for starters.

oh another question doc,what do u recon about adding in 80mcgs of clen daily with a lean mass cycle? odviously with ketofin to upgrade the receptors...

DJ, that's fine with the Clen. There are so many different combo's out there... I would pop 300 test-enanthate every 7 days, testo-prop 100mg every 2-3'rd day - all depends on what you want to use as baseline and if you are buliking or cutting. Very difficult to just generalize..

Mr Rabbit - you and me are in the same boat - turning 39 this year on my side.. Will from now on go on shorter cycles, oestrogen control gets more difficult the older you get...

DJ, good cortisol suppressors:
- phosphatidyl - serine
- mirtazapine
- DHEA
- high dose Vit C
- PCT with the normal B-HCG/CLOMID/KESSAR combo
- Proviron
- Eurycoma Longifolia Jack
- Avena Sativa

Cushing Syndrome drugs used by some athletes:
- aminogluthemide
- metyrapone
These, however, are very dangerous drugs, as they suppress cortisol production very high up in the production cascade. This leads to bleeding tendencies - many body builder have bled to death due to these drugs, Just ask John Leslie about what happened to his leg...

well doc i wanna try put on lean mass not too much bulk as the reason for the creating of the thread...jackrabbit and i both are looking to do courses that are easily maintainable after pct... i dont want any water retention or that sort've thing,obviously doing a cycle like this and keeping your calorie intake reasonable and eat 50%protein 30% carbs and 20% fats i guess i can keep it lean whilst doing this course.

hows the cycle going jackrabbit? i have purchased all my goodies and will be starting the same cycle in about 7-8weeks time...its so tempting when its just sitting at u in the cupboard saying "jab me,jab me"

Quite nicely thanks. It must be working cause i'm getting that "wonder what he's on" look at gym!
Upped the TestP to 150mg(1.5ml) EOD with NPP at 100mg(0.66ml) EOD, 3X Anavar split. Also 3 X Heat split.
I want to drop the test a bit again to (1.3/4) - i can feel the Blood pressure getting high. All OK at 1.2/3.

BTW anyone know the exact dosage of a PGW Anavar cap?

Guys with the test prop and NNP at the very least your shots should be every second day (maybe every third for NNP) but ideally test prop ED and NNP EOD-I think this is a very important point (I know the Doc has spoken about this previously)and everyone should be made aware of this point.From my experience creating stable levels of these drugs in your system can help many of us avoid and/or reduce some of the unwanted side-effects of steroids.As a very basic rule injecting at intervals of half the time of the half life should be a pretty safe rule of thumb.I know it has helped me in reducing sides.

Thanks Conan,
If half-lives look the same:
Propionate 5 days, Pheylpropionate 5 days
Then 1/2 = 2.5

EOD = 06:00 Mon and again on 06:00 Wed.

Is this correct?

jackrabbit1 wrote:

Thanks Conan,
If half-lives look the same:
Propionate 5 days, Pheylpropionate 5 days
Then 1/2 = 2.5

Propionate = 2-3 days
Phenylpropionate = 4 days

EOD injections will be fine, but like Conan said; ED injections would have been the ideal. I sometimes inject 2-4ml everyday, but then injection sites can become a problem, so EOD can give you a nice break to recover from all the pinning.


jackrabbit1 wrote:

EOD = 06:00 Mon and again on 06:00 Wed.

Is this correct?

Yes

I think all of us would like as little nerve from too frequent injections as possible.Another thing relates to site injections and half lives .Most of the half lives given are for injection into the deltoid an injection into the glute with the same product you can divide that figure in half.SO let me correct myself and say inject at a quater the half-life if injecting in the glutes.(remembering that a delt injection will have roughly double the half life of a glute injection but the down side is you will get only half the blood concentrations of a glute injection)So the longer esters like Equi Deca cypionates enanthates should be taken in the glute and the shorter esters used for site injections.for eg. Test Prop has a half life of 4 days (that is for a delt inj.)for a glute inj.the half life is 2 days (but concentration drops off rapidly after 25-26hrs) thats why I said ideally test prop should be ED (I'm taking for granted most people inject into thier glutes)

i inject quads,i never do more that 1.5mls per site..

I've developed a fear for injecting into the quads since i;
1) hit a nerve once and
2)forgot to aspirate and got some oil into the blood stream - scary.

Looks like i will have to get over that.
Not looking forward to daily injections. Will give it a go if i absolutely have to.......