Furk's Proposed Cycle & Log

Hey guys, so what follows is my proposed cycle after some serious though and consideration. I will turn this into a log when I start.

Stats
Age: 24
Height: 1.74m
Weight: No scale ATM, guessing 68-72kg, sub 14% BF, maybe 12%?
Lifting experience: 3 years
Lifting routine throughout cycle: 3 day split, shaped to take advantage of the cycle and work on my week areas. I do cardio on rest days though; don’t see me dropping that as I think cardiovascular fitness and all the other benefits are important.
Diet: I do IF out of habit and have seen good results with it. Will be carb-cycling (becomes second nature I guess) and calorie cycling to take advantage of both lifting and rest days. Will post calculated TDEE and diet if asked for - later...
Goals: Quality, retainable mass. There are tons of other cycles I do to get ridiculously massive I know, but I want the economy of retaining muscle so I don’t have to fork out a gold mine fighting sides and loosing it afterwards.
About me: My lifts are heavy for my size. I gain fat easiliy and due to it's disposition getting big has always looked friggen awkward, thus trying to stay lean year round. Self-confessed chronic cutter.

Cycle
Week 1-8: Test Eth 300mg / week, pinned twice / week
Week 1-8: Primo Depot 200mg / week, first pin 400mg as a kicker
Week 2 – 4: Prov 40mg / day
Week 5 – 8: Prov 60mg / day

Week 2 – 4: HCG 500iu / week, pinned twice/ week
Week 7 - 9: HCG 500iu / week, pinned twice/ week

PCT
14 days after last Test pin : Clomid
After Clomid: Nolvadex
Aromasin on hand/ administed on cycle? Still reading past cycle logs to learn more.

My question as follows
1) Is the HCG really necessary given that Proviron is included in the cycle? Or should I increase Prov and plain forget about the HCG?
2) And am I correct in using the AI this way? I have read so many contradictory things. Will things like gyno and water retention be a problem considering the Prov?
3) Is the test dosage okay given my size and goals? Perhaps less test and double Primo?
4) About 2-3 weeks after the cycle I won’t be able to inject (travelling). Just keeping that in mind whilst setting up this cycle.

BTW I've read many sources to get varied opinions, that how I came up with those dosages and timings.

Cheers

After playing around I have a better proposition to keep estro sides down, then obviously any testen and AI left over I can keep for my next cycle. Changes in blue:

Cycle
Week 1-8: Test Eth 200mg/ week, pinned twice / week
Week 1-8: Primo Depot 400mg / week, first pin 600mg as a kicker
Week 2 – 4: Prov 40mg / day
Week 5 – 8: Prov 60mg / day
Bridge: 15 days, 10-50mg Winstrol / day, ending day before PCT.


Week 2 – 4: HCG 500iu / week, pinned twice/ week
Week 7 - 9: HCG 500iu / week, pinned twice/ week

If this is your first injectable cycle why not stick with enanthate and prop. No primo. Run just test for 12 weeks.i will help u with diet etc on the forum if u post up pics and stats and will help u with trainign routine.

Furk wrote: Cycle
Week 1-8: Test Eth 300mg / week, pinned twice / week
Week 1-8: Primo Depot 200mg / week, first pin 400mg as a kicker
Week 2 – 4: Prov 40mg / day
Week 5 – 8: Prov 60mg / day

That is a really bad first cycle bro. Test-En or Cyp for 12 weeks is power, and you want to learn and understand how your body reacts to the compound. Drop the Proviron if budget is a problem.

Week 2 – 4: HCG 500iu / week, pinned twice/ week
Week 7 - 9: HCG 500iu / week, pinned twice/ week

This I don't understand.


PCT
14 days after last Test pin : Clomid
After Clomid: Nolvadex
Aromasin on hand/ administed on cycle? Still reading past cycle logs to learn more.

My question as follows
1) Is the HCG really necessary given that Proviron is included in the cycle? Or should I increase Prov and plain forget about the HCG?
HCG on cycle is to prevent testicular atrophy and complete shutdown of the HPTA. Proviron is used mainly to free up test, and slightly decrease estrogen and bloating.
2) And am I correct in using the AI this way? I have read so many contradictory things. Will things like gyno and water retention be a problem considering the Prov?
The anti-estrogen effects of Proviron are completely over-rated. Do not bank on it at all. Anything You get from it is a bonus only. AI on hand until gyno symptoms appear. Remember you want to see how your body responds to the test.

3) Is the test dosage okay given my size and goals? Perhaps less test and double Primo?
500-600mg Test alone. No primo.

4) About 2-3 weeks after the cycle I won’t be able to inject (travelling). Just keeping that in mind whilst setting up this cycle.
This could be troublesome. How long wont you be able to pin.


BTW I've read many sources to get varied opinions, that how I came up with those dosages and timings.

I know you do your research well. Trust us here.


Cheers

Hey guys, you’ll find I reply at strange times and intervals – don’t take offence, I’m in GMT+8 and work long, strange hours.

So to follow up on your questions and tell you why I prefer some gear over other, more obvious choices:

1) First off, I would love to, and prefer to do a test only cycle. There are reasons why this is advocated everywhere respectable. I understand this completely. Don’t doubt that I’m not aware of that, gents - just see my reasoning below.

2) I work abroad and I’ll be in ZA for about 10-12 weeks. I usually do international flights and ZA is by far not a strict country for searches and security. I absolutely cannot travel with injections. (Nolva and Clomid I previously put in Centrum bottles, no problems.) That’s why, in a previous thread, I initially thought of doing a short ester cycle like prop where PCT starts earlier. That’s also the reason for wanting to do a milder cycle that leans towards less sides and less intense PCT. Once I’m out of ZA, I have NO resources to fix any persisting problems like gyno. Also, if at all possible, avoid the need for HCG, but I understand keeping my balls alive is important.

3) I pick up fat rather easily, so staying lean is a big priority in my life. Thus I understand how my body reacts to exercise and nutrition and will have my own plan regarding those two nailed. Getting fat easily and gear means nothing like D-bol or high test (especially Cyp), which unfortunately is a obvious first cycle ‘cause you will get swole I’m sure.

4) Priority thus is sustainable gains, even if it means going milder on the juice. But I am definitely keen on putting some test in. I’ve read from a couple of sources good results of a low test dose - moderate to high dose primo/var/equi type cycles. Those are also less suppressive to my natural system, so more favourable.


@Pyro: The HCG is for my nads and encouraging my own test production. I understand you shouldn't run it longer than 3 weeks, and that it needs to be discontinued correctly with your PCT. (There is even an active thread on this site concerning that.) Regarding your commenting on my pinning, I’m abroad for 3-4 months at a time.


In the mean time I’ll see if I can tweak the cycle, I only want to start it in Feb so I’m not rushed (and rather busy at work to spend all my time focusing on this). Thanks for the input guys, I’ll try and keep this thread alive for more advice and opinions, especially past Primo users.

Why can't you run HCG for longer than 3 weeks? If I were you I would use HCG on cycle while you are in SA then you only need Nolva and Clomid for Pct. I run it from week 5 up to the start of pct @500iu per week, split jnto two injections. If you have a cool doc, you can get a perscription for the Nolva and Clomid then you won't have any customs issues. Regarding bloating, if your diet is spot on and clean then bloating should be minimal. If you find yourself bloating then you can run an AI.

Nolva is enough to combat gyno. I have done this in the past, where you time your last pin right before your flight, then pct in the abroad.

@pyro:I've read couple of places it's better to run hcg on cycle for max 3 weeks at a time. So I thought best solution would be to run it in 2 parts. 1st 3 weeks and last 3 weeks of cycle. Totally agree with 500ui per week.

Pyroclasm wrote: Nolva is enough to combat gyno. I have done this in the past, where you time your last pin right before your flight, then pct in the abroad.

Bro there are threads on here where some guys need learn frequently whilst on cycle. But you say nolva is enough? Regarding bloating and water retention, my diet will be spotless and dead on my macros and cals, is there a consensus that that the deciding factor? Cause I understand that it's aromatization to blame.

I get the idea 500 - 700mg combined gear per week is the norm for newbies? Is that right?

Furk wrote: @pyro:I've read couple of places it's better to run hcg on cycle for max 3 weeks at a time. So I thought best solution would be to run it in 2 parts. 1st 3 weeks and last 3 weeks of cycle. Totally agree with 500ui per week.

That's not right hey. Maybe when running rediculous dosages like Rich Piana then yes, but not at 500iu.

Pyroclasm wrote: Nolva is enough to combat gyno. I have done this in the past, where you time your last pin right before your flight, then pct in the abroad.

Bro there are threads on here where some guys need learn frequently whilst on cycle. But you say nolva is enough? Regarding bloating and water retention, my diet will be spotless and dead on my macros and cals, is there a consensus that that the deciding factor? Cause I understand that it's aromatization to blame.

Before the pedant police show up I think I should clarify a bit more. Your bridging period will indeed be the period where gyno is most likely to stick out it's ugly face. Nolva should be fine to carry you to pct, but if you are still scared then take aromasin with too. Another point for gyno is post pct. This happens extremely seldomly on a test only cycle, but if you are worried at all then aromasin during pct will kill it dead with fire.

Regarding bloating on cycle for me is two-fold. One is the aromatization of testosterone to estrogen where indeed bloating is caused by estrogen. The degree to which this happens is dependent on the amount of test used as well as the amount of aromatase sites (known as fat), but also genetics play a big role here.
Secondly is diet. Normally people eat anything not nailed to the table while on cycle, and eating lkts of sugar and fast digesting carbs bloat you a lot. Keeping your diet clean eliminates this side of the equation.

Furk wrote: I get the idea 500 - 700mg combined gear per week is the norm for newbies? Is that right?

To me it's not so much the amount of gear that's important as much as which compounds are used. Using test only is okay, but you can also add primo or EQ or both and even masteron if you want and that is still okay. Very goal dependent. Then come the orals. T-Bol, D-Bol, Anavar, Winstrol, Proviron are all good choices, but Anapolan and Superdrol and those are not okay. My first cycle contained 8 different compounde and I would do it again in a heartbeat.

Pyroclasm wrote:

Furk wrote: I get the idea 500 - 700mg combined gear per week is the norm for newbies? Is that right?

To me it's not so much the amount of gear that's important as much as which compounds are used. Using test only is okay, but you can also add primo or EQ or both and even masteron if you want and that is still okay. Very goal dependent. Then come the orals. T-Bol, D-Bol, Anavar, Winstrol, Proviron are all good choices, but Anapolan and Superdrol and those are not okay. My first cycle contained 8 different compounde and I would do it again in a heartbeat.

What compounds did u use an How where your results from that cycle?

Sorry to hijack

Have a read from page 7 of my cycle log here: www.anabolicsteroids.co.za/forum/4-cycle...-cycle-log?start=150 You also asked me some stuff.

Can't find a definitive post in my log of what I used. My cycle:
Week 1-14: Testoviron @500mg per week
Week1-12: Alpha Pharma EQ (Boldebolin) @500mg per week
Week 1-PCT: Bayer Schering Proviron @60mg ED
Week 1-6: Axio T-Bol @60mg ED
Week 15-PCT: Axio Winstrol @50mg ED
Week 15-PCT: Injectable Clenbuterol, taper up to 120mcg ED
Week 15-PCT: Aspen T3, taper up to 100mcg ED

PCT 3

Things I would change:
Add Yohimbine to the Clen
PGW Test-Cyp. Test was fake/underdosed.
All orals LP
HCG on cycle
Anavar instead of Winstrol
T3 not more than 75mcg
Oral Clen

Cheers for all the input guys. Been reading plenty old logs and articles to enlighten myself further. Will put in a proper reply with a revised cycle soon, just a tad busy now (in China ATM )

So, realized Primo and Ethanthate are out because of ester lengths, and I was seriously considering Masteron Eth too

Instead:

Week 1-8: 420mg test prop/ week
Week 1-PCT: 40mg Prov ED
Kicker: Week 1-3.5: 40-60mg T-bol
Bridge: Week 7-PCT: Winny/Var

HCG: 100mg E3D

PCT: Clomid + Nolva

Still reading about AI's, still in doubt and deciding here.

Ye that's the way to go with your time constraints. Good luck and merry Christmas

Cheers mate, merry Christmas to you as well.

From what I've read aromasin will be the best AI to have on hand, and only use if needed.

Ye Aromisan or Adex

Cycle is fine but either extend the T-Bol to 5 weeks or leave it out. I would use the Aromasin yes, and use only if needed to gauge how you respond to the test. Var for 8 weeks at 60mg or Winstrol for 4-5 weeks at 40mg is great for a first cycle.

I'm thinking if there is a overlap of orals plus the fact that it'll be like 10 weeks on orals that my liver will suffer (even when taking support), that's why I thought shorter time on T-bol.

Why do you suggest 5 weeks T-bol or nothing ? And at what dosage then? I'm pinning 150mg prop EOD, will levels be stable enough?

Taking into account all the factors of high estrogenic (bulking) gear and how to maintain gains ect, it seems like it would be financially more viable in the long run just to run Anavar and Primo at high doses. :huh:

Going with Aromasin. From my research it seems like the smarter choice.


Diet wise I’m looking at the following
Regular lifting day: 2050 cals - 265g P, 145g C, 32g F (may up carbs depending on progress)
Bulk day (High carb day for my weaker muscles): 2580 cals , 265g P, 320g C, 20g F (no direct fat sources)
Cut day ( Low carb cardio day): 1300 cals , 140g P, 30-100g carbs, 45g F. (no direct carb sources , carbs only from fibrous vegetables ect.)

Furk wrote: I'm thinking if there is a overlap of orals plus the fact that it'll be like 10 weeks on orals that my liver will suffer (even when taking support), that's why I thought shorter time on T-bol.

Why do you suggest 5 weeks T-bol or nothing ? And at what dosage then? I'm pinning 150mg prop EOD, will levels be stable enough?

Taking into account all the factors of high estrogenic (bulking) gear and how to maintain gains ect, it seems like it would be financially more viable in the long run just to run Anavar and Primo at high doses. :huh:

With Prop you don't need a kicker bud. Just run the anavar with it for the last 8 weeks and you will be very happy. I always advise running a compound no less than the optimal amount of time as that is where you will get the best gains without going into the zone of diminished returns. Compounds need time to build up to the right concentration levels in the blood stream and then need to remain there for a period which is where most gains will come from.

Regarding the primo question, primo is super expensive hey and yoh won't get as much out of primo as you will for example deca. Ancillaries aren't extremely expensive I.m.o and you only need them if you are prone to a certain problem. Many people need run no ancillaries at all.

Thanks Pyroclasm, putting primo away now till I have an opertunity to run it properly.

No kicker with prop? You keep giving me good news bro. But how long should it be before I start feeling it?

The test starts working immediately and you will notice it a couple of days in. Things are in full swing around the two week mark, and for the late bloomers around 3-4 weeks. Keep your Primo for your second cycle it will be excellent. First cycle is to see how you respond to testosterone, the base ingredient of all cycles you will ever do.