Quality of steroids and Cruising

Good day guys

Appreciate the feedback.
Back story/, so training and nutrition wise, not an issue. Body type -skinny fat. 
45 years old. Currently 84kg and 178cm. Trained on off for years. Absolute hard gainer. Have sub par genetics. Nothing I can do about that. 
Trainer advised I get test levels checked, which I did. Test was on the low side, not low enough to warrant the doc put me on TRT.
Trainer said try test cypionate. First vile was Performance labs. Packaging looked suspect, not what i would want to inject in my body, no safety seals or codes. Started on 100mg per week. No progress. Went up to 250mg per week. I went online and found   legit, safety seals and a code so you can verify online. Was happy. Brought my levels up to upper end of the spectrum. But no magic in the muscle gaining department. 
A family member on my wife side advised I try Sustanon 500mg and Deca 250mg and Dianabol. He could organise a brand by the name of Genitec. I was very suspect, but seeing as he is a big guy, the stuff should be legit.
I tried the sus and deca, did not do the dbols as I generally drink a fair amount on weekends and didnt want to kill my liver.
Did a 16 week cycle, picked up 10kg of muscle in all the right places, waist size stayed the same (34) so Im guessing mostly muscle, still carry a little weight around the midsection.
Friends and family noticed my change in physique which is a nice feeling as I was busting my ass off for years with nothing to show that i actually gym. 
Did 2 x 16 week cycles, second cycle no weight gain or increases in muscle mass. Probably needed to eat more and probably overtrained as I mountain bike fairly long distances on weekends too.

Stopped the cycle in June 28 2023. Went on a cruising dose of 250mg Cypionate
23 August 2023 went for blood work and test levels are that of a female haha.

Question 1.) I cant imagine my levels would drop so low on that cruising dose? So i am wondering if that last Vmed was legit. Tried to verify the code on bottle and their website is down.
Last test 23 August 2023 :Testosterone total - 6.7nmol/L                          January 2023  - 55.4 nmol/L
Free testosterone - 135 pmol/L                                                                                           1624 pmol/L
Sex HOR. Binding Globulin - 29.90 nmol/L                                                                          28.20 nmol/L

Question 2.) I know black market gear is illegal, but why cant we have a list on here listing the preferred and trusted Brands and websites to purchase from that are trusted?
I dont have the time or money to blindly buy and inject in my system on a  trial and error bases.
Can we purchase gear on this website?
Wanted to try UPA, but some guys on here mention under dosed? 
Perhaps just go with the buddy who can organise Genitec. Which i am loath to do as i have to bug him each time i want to order more.
 
Question 3 .)Next cycle i want to try: 12 to 16 week cycle. Will up my calories. 
400mg Deca, 500 Test Cyp and 30mg per day Dianabol for 6 weeks.
Should i take Aramidex each day? Or only if notice any bad sides? 
On last cycle i took Aramidex every 3rd day 0.5mg on the last 2 weeks as trainer mentioned could be the reason gains stopped. 
Is there such a thing as clearing your testosterone receptors before next cycle? 

Simon


                           



 

That last Vmed Test Cyp is guaranteed bogus rubbish. The production cost of Test Cyp is dirt cheap so there is no reason for any underground lab to under dose it.

More gear over and above what you've taken previously is not the way to go. That's down to diet and genetics. You are going to get  diminishing returns the more you take with increased side effects.

I'm your age. I would take less than that and rather add in some low dose anavar or winstrol. You really don't need high doses fo them.

Yes, your body does stop responding to high doses of gear and you will always see diminishing gains the longer you stay on. 

 

Thanks for your reply. Ordered yesterday EU Pharma Deca, Cypionate and Dbol. Packaging on the dbol seems more professional than UPA and less chance to counterfeit.
Can we mention what website we order from?
Probably makes sense to invest in a test kit to test your gear before injecting fakes?

Thanks for the tip on anavar/winstrol. Carry a bit more fat around the midsection than I like. Probably leaning towards winstrol as its cheaper? But the negatives are higher than anavar. When you say low dose. Would than mean 20mg per day?
The doc recently put me on cholesterol meds. Hereditary. Probably made slightly worse on the gear. Said i should have been on since 2019 by the results over the years. Seems Anavar would have less impact on cholesterol, but less effective than winstrol. Whats your advise on the 2?

Simt wrote:

Packaging on the dbol seems more professional than UPA and less chance to counterfeit.

Packaging does not tell you anything about the quality of the contents.

Simt wrote:

Can we mention what website we order from?

No

Simt wrote:

The doc recently put me on cholesterol meds. Hereditary. Said i should have been on since 2019 by the results over the years.

Get a second opinion and if he also says you need cholesterol meds get a third opinion. Keep doing that until you find a doctor that tells you to ignore cholesterol.

Question 3 .)Next cycle i want to try: 12 to 16 week cycle. Will up my calories.
400mg Deca, 500 Test Cyp and 30mg per day Dianabol for 6 weeks.
Should i take Aramidex each day? Or only if notice any bad sides?

ok lets put it this way, If you are needing to use arimadex to control estrogen you are using too much testosterone. Arimadex allows for 0 anabolic gains, and estrogen is needed for many functions in the body. So rather use less test, more other compounds Like Primo, Masteron, and Npp/Deca to make up your anabolic toll.

also, that course you are looking to do will be 1100mg a week roughly for a guy who is 84kgs, that's about 12 odd mg per kg, for a 3rd course that is a very robust dose, i haven't used more than 10mg per kg/week in a couple of years and I'm sitting at about 106.5kgs currently, Not only that, you are starting at peak dosing. that's going to cause issues. when you did your last bloods did you get a full blood count done? cos that dosing of test and then Dianabol is going to change your phlebotic values and drive up your RBC and Hemocrit making your blood quite sludgy.

Have you checked your blood pressure?

what is your current calorie intake and macro split?

what is your current training schedule? are you training close to failure? are you going to failure? How is your recovery? how are your sleep patterns?

Please stop taking advice from the guy at the gym, most of these guys are very uneducated and just throw a whole bunch of stuff at the problem and do not care about long-term side effects.

Simt you've got some good advice above. Taking more than a reasonable dose doesn't mean better body.

Have never had any sides besides some back acne.
Did 2 x 16 week cycles up to 600mg Test and 300mg Deca per week.
Thought 400mg Deca, 500 Test Cyp and 30mg per day Dianabol would be an intermediate/ moderate dose cycle. Some guys are in the few thousands. Probably why they die of heart attack.

What quantities/structure would you recommend of the dbol, deca and test?
Would like to end off the last 6 weeks with 20mg Anavar per day.
Maybe 300 deca , 500 test?
Limit the dbol to 4 weeks 20mg per day?
I understand the dbol kick starts the cycle?

You mention starting at peak dose not good? makes sense. would you recommend ramping up the dose?

I did full blood test. Everything is in order and in range. the only out of range was:
Urea -8 nmol/L
Sodium - 135mmol/L
HDL - 0.9vmmol/L and all the other cholesterol values on the high side. Doc put me on cholesterol meds due to this value being low.
And very low testosterone, even though cruising on 250mg cypionate. Vmed. I will continue cruising for the rest of my life. No need for PCT.

In hindsight i should not have ordered the EU Pharma from usual website i bought the vmed and just went with the Genitec i can get through a friend. He swears by Genitec, who can argue as he is getting huge. Just the inconvenience of asking him, and packaging seems proper dodgy, no seals or validation codes.

You mentioned dont listen to the gym guy. I dont im overly cautious and read up best i can and make my own call. Said trainer is on tren now, saying i should try. With his already shaky mental/agro issues, good luck to him.

I now work out at home. Personal trainer costing too much. I seem to respond better to my own style/workout routine. Even with the low test:) Pull ups and dips are making big changes in my physique. Bench 90kg x10.
Found 3 sets to absolute failure works best for me. Trying out twice body part per week but i seem to be regressing somewhat. Few variables to eliminate. Was sick with cold. Not enough rest time or low test, or even training too close to failure. I record and make small changes when stagnate.
Sleep 7.5 to 8 hours per day. Probably drink a little too much too on weekends and thursdays a few glasses wine with wife. Try drink less on a cycle though.

Calorie , and have a life outside of body building. But try maintain 2.2gram protein per kg. I meal prep for 5 days in the week. So stews with rice etc. And soups to get the veg in. I dont count my calories, i try eating more calories on a cycle and watch the scale. if it does not go up i try chow more. Although mostly at the limit of what i can stomach. More than that and im sick full and lethargic.

www.anabolicsteroids.co.za/forum/cycle-d...and-deca-tbol#229284

Please read through that and come back with questions. Very similar to what you are looking and wanting to do.

Thank you Empire. Good info. The 10mg per kg rule makes sense. You dont find this info on the web. Just find vague figures on cycle dosages. But a guy weighing 70kg cant possibly use the same dose Test as a 7 foot 130kg guy.
I want to get a cycle in before December holidays so my thoughts on dosages as follows: Weight 84kg 178cm
16 week cycle
First 4 weeks Dbol 20mg per day (140mg per week)
Test 400mg per week
Deca 300mg per week

Week 5 to week 8
Test 500mg per week
Deca 350mg per week

Week 9 to 16
Test 400mg per week
Deca 300mg per week
Anavar 20mg per day (140 per week)

Does this make sense? How would you structure it?
Want to build some muscle but lose fat towards end of cycle. Im Probably on 25 percent body fat at the moment. Carried midsection.
Thinking I will start at 10mg per kg body weight. I understand the ramping up makes sense as you dont want to abruptly bring up test levels overnight. But I dont seem to get affected with bad sides except for back acne.

And then I need advice on training to failure/intensity
Should I reduce intensity and add sets?
Eg keep RIR(reps in reserve 1 to 3)

I train 45min to 1hour duration. And leave 0 reps in reserve on each set. Often ending with negative/forced rep after each set. I take a 3min rest between each exercise.
I train to absolute failure in 2 to 3 sets per body part. So Monday : 6 to 12 rep range.
When I get to 12 reps, next week would add weight and get 6 or 8 rep and try get up to 12 reps and add weight and repeat. Progressive overload.
Bench 3 sets 6 to 12 reps
Overhead 3 sets
Dips 3 sets
Flys 3 sets
Skull crushers 3 sets
On gear try twice per week per body part. But body feels exhausted.
I seem to be stagnating and or regressing. I have it in my head that unless i absolutely kill the muscle, it wont grow. But perhaps with this approach I am taxing my central nervous system too much and cant grow/repair in time.

Thinking I should add sets and reduce intensity and keep 1 to 2 or 3 reps in reserve.

well, you are right, a guy who is 70kgs will be using 3mg per kg = 210mg. whereas a guy who is 130kgs will be using 390mg. per week. that is pretty much how the maths works.

the reason we limit testosterone is because too much testosterone converts to estrogen, Also too much testosterone drives up red blood cell production through the RAAS system in the kidneys, causing your blood to become like glue. This in turn can drive up water retention and thus results in higher blood pressure, that is why doctors' first line of defense is to give you an Ace inhibitor when you are hypertensive as it stops the formation of red blood cells, and helps reduce strain on the kidneys, etc. High red blood cells and blood pressure is what give you a lot of issues with KIDNEYS and lower your EGFR and kidney function.

the last thing you need is to have high hematocrit, hemoglobin, and RBC especially if you have had COVID-19, or the COVID-19 vaccine, or have any family history of blood clotting issues.

you missed the whole "less testosterone or testosterone-derived substances, will lead to fewer issues in that regard. so simply setting your testosterone/test-derived substances at 3mg per kg would be a good start. so at 75kgs, you are at 225mg per week of total test or test-derived substances, (0.9ml of test cyp for simple maths)"

so what are testosterone-derived substances? Testosterone, Equipoise, Dianabol, and Turinabol.

so you do not want to run a high dose test and high-dose dianabol.

and not once did i say start at 10mg per kg, I said a maximum dose of 10-12mg per kg. you would set your test dosing at 3mg per kg for the whole duration. then 3mg would come from something like your 19nor family : Deca/Npp. or your DHT family: Primo or masteron injectable. or a combo of both, and those 2 substances would titrate up.

look at the following paragraphs

"So we starting at 200/200 if no issues occur,
at week 3 we go to 225 test, and 250 NPP,(475mg per week)
week 5 we go 225 test, 150 NPP and 165 deca. (540mg per week)
week 6 we switch to 225 test and 330mg deca( 550mg per week)
at week 8 we are at 550mg per week, but we still have +/- 250mg to play with, we know that you have issues with DHT conversion from test/test family substances, but we want to keep the lean hard look (#instafitbro) so we want something that isn't going to linger around too long, and cause too much hair shedding, but will also cover the water retention that comes from the testosterone and 19nor (deca)
so we use DHT which is active for a short period of time, and quick in and out so that at the end of the time you are off of it and it dissipates quickly, what is the most HAIR Friendly DHT substance?? Anavar.

so we add in 30mg of anavar daily for 8 weeks.

so your last 8 weeks on course would be
225mg test cyp, 330mg deca, and 30mg of Anavar daily (210mg per week) give you 765mg per week, which is pretty much bang on the 10mg per kg we need to be, however, you will have fewer side effects, better course design, and saved yourself from as much of those lovely locks falling out."

so why don't you use that example and do the maths to make that course work for you using those milligram outlines?

also at 25% body fat, you are going to be producing more estrogen than most 14-year-old girls in puberty.

Estrogen in males is made when testosterone converts to estrogen via the aromatase enzyme which is found highly in body fat. so the more body fat you have, the more estrogen you make.

so you say you don't get affected by bad side effects, please provide me with your blood pressure results whilst on the course, and also a copy of your blood work when you are on course mainly your full blood count to see how you blood viscosity is, also your egfr score too to see if your kidneys are fully functioning. It is like saying my car is fully functioning, because the mechanic checked the oil level, with the dipstick. yet you haven't taken the car for service in 300 000km.

Ok was my plan to start maximum high dosage of 10mg per kg. As you stated that is maximum safe limit. And as i mentioned before the lower dose did not seem to do much for my strength or physique. But the blood results paint a different picture. Going through my cycle history and blood test history. Need to record all this a little better but here goes.

Blood test 21/10/2021
Free Test 359pmol/L
Total Test 17.9 nmol/L
Started Cycle 29/10/2021 on 225mg per week Test Cyp. Performance labs
Noticed no increase in strength/physique.
Started 74kg

4 Jan 2022 started Test Cyp Cooper Pharmaceuticals 250mg per week. Hardly noticeable strength/physique

3 March 2022 started V.Med Test Cyp 250mg per week
Blood test 21/10/2021
Free Test 1624 pmol/L
Total Test 55.4 nmol/L
Didnt see much gains.

Went though another vile Nova labs Test Cyp

Friend says try Genitec Sus 500mg and Deca 250mg per week
Weight 79kg
Start 30 June 2022 Decided 400mg Sus and 200 Deca
08 September increased to 500mg Sus and 270 Deca
17 Nov stop cycle. Picked up 5kg Muscle. Friends start noticing gains. Cruise 300mg Test Cyp

2nd Sus and Deca Cycle starts 1 Feb 2023 to 28 June
Body started to hate Sus on the cycle for some reason.
1st cycle had mild discomfort. This cycle i could not walk for weeks as injection site inflamed. I do ventrogluteal. Tried subcutaneous on midsection. Burnt as though i injected acid. Inflamed for weeks. Decided to stop Sus and go back to Tect Cyp. and Deca.
Probably did not agree with the Propionate in the Sus.

28 June Cruise 250 mg Test Cyp V.Med
Blood test 3 August 2023 :
Testosterone total - 6.7nmol/L
Free testosterone - 135 pmol/L
Sex HOR. Binding Globulin - 29.90 nmol/L
I did full blood test. Everything is in order and in range. the only out of range was:
Urea -8 nmol/L
Sodium - 135mmol/L
HDL - 0.9vmmol/L and all the other cholesterol values on the high side. Doc put me on cholesterol meds due to this value being low.
And very low testosterone, even though cruising on 250mg cypionate. Vmed.

Took Aramidex every 3rd day 0.5mg on the last 2 weeks of Cycle as trainer mentioned could be the reason gains stopped.

So either due to high dose and long 20 week cycle my test crashed, or the V.Med was fake.

So it seems even on 250mg Test Cyp, my tests levels were already at the upper limit if relying on blood tests.
But did not feel strength or gains.
Only until high dose Sus and Deca did i notice any strength/gains. Psychological? Perhaps responded to the added Deca?

I have no idea how to structure my next cycle with the ratios/quantities etc. I am a complete novice. Any advice?
But want to try Test, Deca and Dbol and finish with Anavar.
My doctor is open to me taking testosterone. And will monitor blood work. Have a blood test in 3 months to monitor my cholesterol as he put me on meds.
My cholesterol is hereditary and was not in good shape for many years, even before the cycles. On Adco simvastatin 20mg

So none of your blood tests cover what could really be a potential issue. No full blood count, no u and e and creatinine. So you actually dont know what your insides look like.

Let me put it this way, when you stand at the bottom of an elevator and push the button, does the lift go up faster the harder or more frequently you push the button? No. Same with anabolics.
So starting at high does only puts strain on the body raising inflammation markers etc and organ strain with no speeding up of muscle and protein accrual, as that is very much limited by calorie intake, recovery etc.


Also you dont monitor calories. There are 2 major components of growing muscle tissue. Miligrams and caloires. If you are just relying on 1 you are wasting your milligrams. So you can take 0 advice that ive given and do you own thing.

Ive explained in depth the risks for this but you still seem to be dead set on starting at 10mg per kg. Also i told you why you shouldn't use dbol and test together. You can read the thread again and use the exact doses i gave the other guy or you can apply maths to figure it out, but you are looking for justification as to why your idea is good instead of accepting qualify advice.

So good luck champ.

www.anabolicsteroids.co.za/forum/dieting...ial-prep-log?start=0

Just take a read at one of my contest prep threads. You will see you are planning on using more gear than i did. Im just giving you this as an example as to seeing you dont need massive doses to grow.

I see i either missed some of your previous messages or reading this forum from my cell phone and was not logged in to forum. On the Laptop it shows all the messages correctly.

I have done full blood tests, not sure how to upload pdf? Cant cut and paste as pdf wont allow. Do you have an email? Or can i list a few results you need a look at? All Blood test results were in range and so was blood pressure.

I am unsure how to apply your example to the gear i have. Test cyp, deca and dbol and anavar.

Your example mentions NPP. Do i drop the Dbol and run just test and deca and last 8 weeks include anavar?
Or run dbol and test but but half each dose for the first 4 weeks and drop dbol after week 4?

So applying your example without dbol. I am 84 kg and 178cm
Week 1 to 3 - 220 test and 185 deca
Week 3 to 5 - 252 test and 252 deca
Week 6 to 8 - 252 test and 378 deca
Week 8 to 16 - 252 test 375 deca and (30mg anavar each day)

Unsure how dbol fits in here. Or even if its needed. But as i have it might as well utilize it? Or Drop the dbol and buy NPP?

I may come across as dumb or not taking in your recommendations, but i am total newbie and its hard to take all this info in. Appreciate your feedback.

You wont be able to share information here like that.
emails/telephonenumbers / ex girlfrien reviews etc

Take the blood tests and just manually type out the values.


as for being a noob, honestly 99% of the stuff spoken about on here, Confuses the living poo out of me

You get 3 familes of drugs.

You get your testosterone family which all of these drugs have similar effects on the body eg conversion to estrogen and driving up phlebotic values such as red blood cells. These include

Testosterone( any ester)
Boldenone(equipoise)(this converts to estrogen at 50% of what testosterone does,but drives up redblood cells drastically)
Dianabol( converts to estrogen really easily hence the massive water retention)
Turinabol (unique drug does it doesnt really convert to estrogen but still drives up phlebotic values)

Then you get your 19nor family. These drive up cell volume and water retention, they all portray similar characteristics and are :

Nandrolone deconate(deca)
Nandrolone phenylproprionate(npp)
Tren(and ester)
And ment.

Then you get your DHT derivatives. They give you no conversion to estrogen or water retention and can actually lower estrogen values. These are :
Primobolan
Masteron
Anavar
Winstrol
DHB
And Anadrol(how ever it works like a 19nor and can drive up phlebotic values like a Testosterone.)

So when I tell you you limit your testosterone family drugs to 3mg per kg. That means if you want to use Testosterone and dianabol, the total dosage of both drugs on a weekly basis need to be 3mg per kg. So if you are 80kgs you get 240mg per week. So if you are using 20mg of dianabol a day( 20x7) you get 140mg which means you would only use 100mg of testosterone per week.

So the recommendation of the course i designed above means you wouldnt use dianabol. Because your testosterone is at 3mg per kg on its own.

If you are getting to a point you are needing to use arimadex to control estrogen your testosterone/testosterone derived drug dosing is too high.

I explained in the thread i posted why we would use npp to start and then switch over to nandrolone deconate(deca)

why do we use NPP, as oupa stated? because 19nor substance can have certain effects on the body, 1 is the raising of progesterone, which can cause gyno, another is the raising of prolactin which can cause erectile dysfunction, so we use a substance that if those side effects happen, you drop it and it clears the system very quickly, CRISIS AVERTED.

Empire wrote:

I explained in the thread i posted why we would use npp to start and then switch over to nandrolone deconate(deca)

why do we use NPP, as oupa stated? because 19nor substance can have certain effects on the body, 1 is the raising of progesterone, which can cause gyno, another is the raising of prolactin which can cause erectile dysfunction, so we use a substance that if those side effects happen, you drop it and it clears the system very quickly, CRISIS AVERTED.

Good point. I've been wondering about this. though I've never seen any real evidence that 19-nor steroids increase progesterone. They are already progestins that bind to the progesterone receptor. They increase progestogenic activity without needed to convert or increase progesterone levels. 

Structurally similar hormones are known to have cross-reactivity issues with immunoassay blood tests. So 19-nors can give a false indication of elevated progesterone when progesterone levels are low. This is where the confusion started years ago.

When you add any exogenous hormones to the body, the body will try to maintain homeostasis by producing less of the endogenous hormone that the targets the same receptor. Not more, as would be the case with deca/tren if they were to increase progesterone. Men only produce about 20mg of progesterone a week. Just 100mg Deca has the same potency at the progesterone receptor as that. 

Science has a way to go with understanding the pharmacodynamics of the steroids we put in our body.

Thanks for the info guys. Much appreciated. Is there a sticky or pinned post on this forum where all the basics are kept so the newcomers dont keep rehashing the basics?

Use the search function, loads of amazing topics

Bogus rubbish? Do you mean the vmed test cyp is bad or that it is nonsense that it is bad quality? 
I am curious since I have used it for years and was always happy with my results.

regards

Well then sticks with what works. I personally use UPA.

People i have worked with have used vmed. Results havent been exponentially fantastic.

If you want to know if its legit get bloods done. Simple as that.

I used Vmed test C about 4 years ago and it was complete trash. I did bloodwork and test levels were not elevated at all. Threw it away, ordered another bottle, same story. Supplier sent a free bottle of Sustanon, same story. 3 blood tests running each bottle for 4 weeks and complete trash. PGW was my go to but now UPA is top