Also New

I am also new to this world. I used to be very fit, but my training was mostly built around fitness, with as much bodybuilding as I could fit in between my other sport. I used juice only once in my life, in 2000, when I went on an 8 week course of Primabolin S (oral). I can't remember what I took with it then. It was the best time in my life. I woke up energised, and even had energy left in the evenings.

I have stopped training, and I am not very healthy at the moment. My diets is very restricted, because I have IBS (most foods irritate my stomach). And I am extremely tired. My doctor told me I have yuppie flue, but I am not sure that he is right. He has made some other mistakes in the past - I say this because I took the same test results that he found nothing wrong with, to a sports doctor who found some issues.

I have my ups and downs with my tiredness, but more down than up at the moment.

Recently my doctor put me on a 10 week hormone therapy course, after I asked for help. After 6 weeks I started to feel a difference. It became easier to get up in the mornings, and I had a couple of good days where I actually felt energised during the day.

My 10 week course is now overe, and I wanted to take this a little further. I am looking for something to take orally (I know nothing about injections), and something that would not be stressful on my liver.

I read the article about Anavar and Porviron. But on a page I found listing the pro's and cons, I see that Porviron lists as a 6 out of 10 for side effects.

I see Anavar list very low on side effects. Is this true ?

And if this is true, what can I take with Anavar that would not give me too many side effects ?

Welcome

No one can tell you how you will respond to steroids, and what sides you will experience. I cannot use anavar, my system doesn't like it, but on the other hand, i have no issues with Tren 80. :blink:

The info blow is merely a guideline for users to know what can be expected.



Give us some more info about yourself. Age/Height/Weight.

Lets see. I trained all my life. I was a skinny kid at school and started training in std. 9

I weighed 64 kg, and when I came back from the border, I still weighed 64 kg. I trained for 10 years just to get to 74 kg. And then another 10 years to get to 84, my highest I could get on my own.

I worked with a friend who suggested I try a course with him. So I took Primabolin S for 8 weeks. It worked very well for me, and I went from 84 to 92 kg. I was extremely fit, did sports aerobics competitions, and fitness classes, and a bit of bodybuilding. I wouldn't call it real bodybuilding because to combine fitness and bodybuilding does not really work that well. Fitness cuts where bodybuilding builds.

But I've always been tired. I've been from doctor to doctor, and every doctor says, you're fine, it is just stress.

Re. my age etc. - I am now 45 years old, I am 1.8m tall, and weigh 100 kg (yip, I gained fat).

My main goal now is just to get my strength back, because I go to sleep tired, and wake up tired. Once I've broken that barrier I will shed some fat and start working my way up from there again.

I miss the old days, and I would love to get back into the gym again, and maybe do a little less fitness and a little more body shaping.

Have you got any idea what your testosterone levels are at, and maybe some resent blood tests ?

Oupa wrote: Have you got any idea what your testosterone levels are at, and maybe some resent blood tests ?

I just completed a 10 week course of depo-testosterone, given to me by my doctor because my levels were too low.

Sorry, I am a newbie, so I hope this is correct. My doctor first had me tested. She then told me that the testosterone levels should be between 7 and 27, and that mine were 7. So she put me on this 10 week course (2 ml every 2 weeks, over a period of 10 weeks).

I went to her because I was extremely tired. Only after 6 weeks I started feeling a difference. I know the injections stay in the system longer than those orally taken. But I have no idea what to expect now that my 10 week treatment is over.

I have not been tested again, so I do not know where my levels currently are.

With all due respect, to me your story doesn't make sense. And i am not going to explain why.

When is your next follow up session with the doc?

If you were under no medical treatment from a doc, i would recommend doing a cycle of PGW Cyp 250 for a couple of weeks.

I apologise. I am trying my best to explain. I have never been on a forum like this, and this is all new to me.

Regarding the counts, I am just repeating what my doctor told me. I am just so tired of being tired, and just want to get my strength + energy back. I just read another review of a steroid, and the guy mentioned in his feedback that his energy levels were fantastic. If I can just get that back I will be so happy.

Thank you for the advice ... let me Google PGW Cyp 250 (I really am a newbie, and I don't know much about these products ... and you guys were my last hope). I really just want to get better again.

The depo-testosterone started working for me, but it was not enough. And my doctor says she will only put me on another course in 3 months from now (in January).

I will jump in if Oupa doesn't want to poke. If your free test levels were 7 and you hadn't taken any steroids in the year before the blood test then it does sound like you could well be a candidate for TRT. When did you do the primobolan? Your doc must know what giving you testosterone injections will only weaken your potential for producing normal levels of endogenous testosterone. So I assume there has already been talk of treating you for hypogonadism?

It will take you a few months to feel normal again after your 10 week course, and by normal I mean normal for someone with low testosterone. So you will still feel crap. If what you are telling us is right, then if I was you I would probably stay on TRT unless you are willing to stay off everything for 6 months and then see a good endocrinologist who can try to get your test levels up naturally as a last resort.

Colt wrote: The depo-testosterone started working for me, but it was not enough. And my doctor says she will only put me on another course in 3 months from now (in January).

Your doctor sounds like she should rather refer you to a specialist as what she is doing makes no sense.

Muscleaddict wrote: I will jump in if Oupa doesn't want to poke. If your free test levels were 7 and you hadn't taken any steroids in the year before the blood test then it does sound like you could well be a candidate for TRT. When did you do the primobolan? Your doc must know what giving you testosterone injections will only weaken your potential for producing normal levels of endogenous testosterone. So I assume there has already been talk of treating you for hypogonadism?

It will take you a few months to feel normal again after your 10 week course, and by normal I mean normal for someone with low testosterone. So you will still feel crap. If what you are telling us is right, then if I was you I would probably stay on TRT unless you are willing to stay off everything for 6 months and then see a good endocrinologist who can try to get your test levels up naturally as a last resort.

This is one of my reasons for asking you guys. From experience I am not very fond of GP's. They tend to not look at the full picture.

My level was at 7, and I haven't had any form of steroids for many years.
I took the Primabolin in 2000 or 2001, will have to go check the label to confirm the date 100% .. I still have the empty bottles.

To hear your words "and by normal I mean normal for someone with low testosterone. So you will still feel crap.", it worries me, because I want to feel better, that is why I am trying this route. I don't want to feel crap anymore So your advice is highly appreciated.

My plan was to use something just to get back on my feet again (not feel so tired anymore). And if this works, then I know there is something wrong with my testosterone levels. Basically my doctor is not doing enough, so I am trying to help myself - do my own research and try a couple of products as I am really tired of feeling so tired all the time.

And thinking back to 2000 / 2001 when I was on the Primabolin, I felt fantastic at the time. So I was hoping to reproduce the results. Or even if I could just get half that far, it would be a huge step for me.

I hope this makes more sense. I am trying to help myself .. by going to the experts - you guys.

Were you taking any other medication when your testosterone tested at 7?

Muscleaddict wrote: Were you taking any other medication when your testosterone tested at 7?

Nexium - my acid levels are too high. We also think caused by stress. This I am getting from a stomach specialist, and not from my GP.

And antidepressants (venlor), mornings. And Serequel in the evenings, to help me sleep. This is very embarrasing for me, there is such a stigma around antidepressants. I was never physically tested for depression. I went to a doctor because I was very stressed. I work very long hours, so I get little sleep ... a vicious cycle which, over time, breaks you down physically. Apparently all the stress releases cortisol, and breaks down your testosterone.

I described my symptoms to the doctor, and he prescribed the venlor. I told him I am not depressed, but stressed. And he said to me you cannot prescribe the one without the other (the Serequel without the Venlor). Apparently the stuff that calms you down can cause depression, therefore the antidepressants.

Bud those symptoms from stress could be exacerbated by having low testosterone as well. Stress will raise cortisol levels for sure and high body fat also lowers testosterone, but your testosterone is so low that I'm pretty certain your problem is hormonal.

It's not uncommon for men who go on TRT to no longer feel the need for mood stabilisers or anti depressants because all along they were basically treating a symptom without knowing the cause, which was low testosterone all along.

There is a good forum run by Dr Crisler, www.allthingsmale.com that has many members who have been through what you are going through. Another one is thinksteroids.com/forum/mens-health-forum/ where Dr. Scally is an administrator.

You need to see a specialist who you can discuss options with regarding possible testosterone replacement therapy and the alternatives. This will be safer and better than self medicating.

I went through the same simular shit at your age and started running ...for 2 years then joined a gym ...worked wonders ...cholestrol depression all down and under control ..running releases all kinds of endorfines and feel good hormones ect ....I only run once a week for 30 min nowdays and work out 3 to 4 times a week plus surf when ever I can ...

maybe u need to try to get fit loose weight then body build ...your test should be between
9.7 and 27 so 7 is very low but I would try diet running ZMA and tribulis and if that doesnt help then TRT...but whith a differant Doc ...
what happens after the 10 weeks ...U going to feel worse ???

Thank you very much. Your answers at least give me hope.

So there is no quick fix for me ... no juice ?

I was so desperate to feel better, I started asking the guys at the office who do bodybuilding to give me something. They say it is easy to get, but they get very quiet when I really start talking about juice, and suddenly can't help me.

So the next thing I did was to try and find a forum, and this is how I got here.

It is funny how people say it is so easy to get juice these days, but when you start asking you suddenly can't find any.

So desperate to feel better.

MA, your reply makes so much sense to me. That is exactly what I thought. And only because once in my life I used Primabolin, and all my problems went away ... even my stress. I remember that feeling of energy, and calmness.
That is why I wanted to try this, but I did not know what to buy / where to start.

mike123 wrote: I went through the same simular shit at your age and started running ...for 2 years then joined a gym ...worked wonders ...cholestrol depression all down and under control ..running releases all kinds of endorfines and feel good hormones ect ....I only run once a week for 30 min nowdays and work out 3 to 4 times a week plus surf when ever I can ...

maybe u need to try to get fit loose weight then body build ...your test should be between
9.7 and 27 so 7 is very low but I would try diet running ZMA and tribulis and if that doesnt help then TRT...but whith a differant Doc ...
what happens after the 10 weeks ...U going to feel worse ???

I have tried Tribulis, and that helps, but it is temporary. When I take tribulis, it gives me a bit of aggression, but good aggression, which gets me going. It puts the fight back into me, if that makes sense.

But it is only temporary, and stops as soon as I stop taking the Tribulis.

MA gave you his viewpoint and he makes a very good point backed by years of research. I am going to give you my viewpoint on this so you have a better rounded story so to speak. I think your low test levels and lack of energy is directly caused by your high cortisol levels. These two are the classic symptoms. You need to do everything in your power to lower your cortisol.

You say you feel aggressive and alive on Tribules? Yes yes bud these are signs of testosterone levels rising! Tribulis is out of your system very quickly, and some find it effective at raising testosterone levels for when they have low test. ZMA and DAA on the other hand work well for most with low test levels. I agree with Rhino- get these three supps they should make you feel a whole lot better. Also get some Vit B12 and Vit B-Complex shots (not tablets). Get a good multivit as well- very important for someone with a hectic lifestyle like yours. Vitamin C and D very good for cortisol. Do not for the love of Zuma go on steroids now you are gonna fuck up your HPTA axis permanently!!

End of the day the root cause of your high cortisol is the lack of sleep no doubt it. You are going to have to sort this out dude. That, or you might have to be on meds for the rest of your life. Life is too short to be unhappy bud! Money is just a man made concept.

Pyroclasm wrote: MA gave you his viewpoint and he makes a very good point backed by years of research. I am going to give you my viewpoint on this so you have a better rounded story so to speak. I think your low test levels and lack of energy is directly caused by your high cortisol levels. These two are the classic symptoms. You need to do everything in your power to lower your cortisol.

You say you feel aggressive and alive on Tribules? Yes yes bud these are signs of testosterone levels rising! Tribulis is out of your system very quickly, but very effective at raising testosterone levels for somebody with low test. ZMA and DMA too. I agree with Rhino- get these three supps they should make you feel a whole lot better. Also get some Vit B12 and Vit B-Complex shots (not tablets). Get a good multivit as well- very important for someone with a hectic lifestyle like yours. Vitamin C and D very good for cortisol. Do not for the love of Zuma go on steroids now you are gonna fuck up your HPTA axis permanently!!

End of the day the root cause of your high cortisol is the lack of sleep no doubt it. You are going to have to sort this out dude. That, or you might have to be on meds for the rest of your life. Life is too short to be unhappy bud! Money is just a man made concept.

Thank you so much, I really appreciate this. I also believe as you mentioned, that I have a Cortisol problem. From my own research, I understand that long term stress is bad, which causes high cortisol levels, also over a long term, and that just screws up the whole body. My own research also shows that high cortisol kills the good bacteria in the stomach and gut, which I also have a problem with.

I am taking Maxi B at the moment, which is a tablet form. And I take a double dose (2 tablets) instead of the prescribed 1 tablet. But I will follow your suggestion and go for the injections instead.

I also take a Multi Vit daily. I take the Bioharmony range (Patrick Holford ?). I really like his view on vitamins and diets. His doses and combinations of vitamins are different from the general vitamins out there.

Also because of Patrick Holford, I take Cal-C-Vita. The reason being, Cal-C-Vit has 1000mg of vit C per tablet. Holford believes that anything less than that is just a waste of money, and does not work.
And I don't know why, but on Cal-C-Vita I actually feel the difference (boost) after taking it. I just have to use it in moderation, as it irritates my stomach lining.

I have also just asked my doctor if we can have my vit D tested, so I have the form with me and now just need to go to a lab to get the blood sample taken.

Your reply makes a lot of sense to me, so thank you very much, I really appreciate it. I am at breaking point at the moment, and desperate for anything that can make me feel better.

I will get the ZMA and DMA asap, tomorrow even if I can. And this weekend I will go for that blood sample so we can see what my vit D level is at.

At least I have a plan of action now. I still have many questions, I am just afraid to ask them. I see this forum has very strict rules, and there are very basic questions that I still need answered.

Thank you.

Muscleaddict wrote: It's not uncommon for men who go on TRT to no longer feel the need for mood stabilisers or anti depressants because all along they were basically treating a symptom without knowing the cause, which was low testosterone all along.

PS. this is EXACTLY what the Primabolin did for me. I went from being nervous, tired and a little depressed, to being calm, full of energy and being very happy. I will never forget that feeling.

Use the link below if you have any questions that might breach our rules.

Enquiries

Colt wrote:

Pyroclasm wrote: MA gave you his viewpoint and he makes a very good point backed by years of research. I am going to give you my viewpoint on this so you have a better rounded story so to speak. I think your low test levels and lack of energy is directly caused by your high cortisol levels. These two are the classic symptoms. You need to do everything in your power to lower your cortisol.

You say you feel aggressive and alive on Tribules? Yes yes bud these are signs of testosterone levels rising! Tribulis is out of your system very quickly, but very effective at raising testosterone levels for somebody with low test. ZMA and DMA too. I agree with Rhino- get these three supps they should make you feel a whole lot better. Also get some Vit B12 and Vit B-Complex shots (not tablets). Get a good multivit as well- very important for someone with a hectic lifestyle like yours. Vitamin C and D very good for cortisol. Do not for the love of Zuma go on steroids now you are gonna fuck up your HPTA axis permanently!!

End of the day the root cause of your high cortisol is the lack of sleep no doubt it. You are going to have to sort this out dude. That, or you might have to be on meds for the rest of your life. Life is too short to be unhappy bud! Money is just a man made concept.

Thank you so much, I really appreciate this. I also believe as you mentioned, that I have a Cortisol problem. From my own research, I understand that long term stress is bad, which causes high cortisol levels, also over a long term, and that just screws up the whole body. My own research also shows that high cortisol kills the good bacteria in the stomach and gut, which I also have a problem with.

High cortisol levels also kills gains so going on a cycle is not the answer bud.

I am taking Maxi B at the moment, which is a tablet form. And I take a double dose (2 tablets) instead of the prescribed 1 tablet. But I will follow your suggestion and go for the injections instead.

The injections have a bioavailability of +-98%. This means if you inject 100kg, through the processes of the body to extract the substance you will get out 98kg. On the other side the bioavailability of pill form Vit B is 1%. So 99% of what you ingest is lost.

I also take a Multi Vit daily. I take the Bioharmony range (Patrick Holford ?). I really like his view on vitamins and diets. His doses and combinations of vitamins are different from the general vitamins out there.

Also because of Patrick Holford, I take Cal-C-Vita. The reason being, Cal-C-Vit has 1000mg of vit C per tablet. Holford believes that anything less than that is just a waste of money, and does not work.
And I don't know why, but on Cal-C-Vita I actually feel the difference (boost) after taking it. I just have to use it in moderation, as it irritates my stomach lining.

Ground breaking stuff by Mr Holford!! :woohoo: haha Joke bro but for real Cal-C-Vita is okay. Someone in your situation needs 2-3g Vit C per day. More if you can tolerate it.

I have also just asked my doctor if we can have my vit D tested, so I have the form with me and now just need to go to a lab to get the blood sample taken.

It´s an expensive test hey so prepare yourself mentally.

Your reply makes a lot of sense to me, so thank you very much, I really appreciate it. I am at breaking point at the moment, and desperate for anything that can make me feel better.

Chin up dude! You have the support of the whole forum no matter what happens.

I will get the ZMA and DMA asap, tomorrow even if I can. And this weekend I will go for that blood sample so we can see what my vit D level is at.

Buy them from www.bssa.biz The site is run by a member of this forum and the dude is a champion. His supps are brilliant!

At least I have a plan of action now. I still have many questions, I am just afraid to ask them. I see this forum has very strict rules, and there are very basic questions that I still need answered.

We have strict rules about asking for sources etc. but regarding questions fire away. You need not fear asking.

Thank you.

Oupa wrote: Use the link below if you have any questions that might breach our rules.

Enquiries

Thank you very much.

I just want to add that when I say, breach the rules, I mean stupid question - like noob questions. Basic things about steroids that I would like to know. I have seen that this forum does not take kindly to "stupid" (noob) questions


Example: If I take one of the sample cycles on this site, for example a 100 day cycle, but I cut it down to 50 days .. would I be wasting my money ? (just an example of a question).

Please keep in mind that my goal is to test products for my own TRT needs. So instead of a going on a full bodybuilding cycle, I just want to test the product first to see what effect the product will have on my energy levels, my mood, etc.

Hope this makes sense ?

Pyroclasm wrote:

Colt wrote:

Pyroclasm wrote: MA gave you his viewpoint and he makes a very good point backed by years of research. I am going to give you my viewpoint on this so you have a better rounded story so to speak. I think your low test levels and lack of energy is directly caused by your high cortisol levels. These two are the classic symptoms. You need to do everything in your power to lower your cortisol.

You say you feel aggressive and alive on Tribules? Yes yes bud these are signs of testosterone levels rising! Tribulis is out of your system very quickly, but very effective at raising testosterone levels for somebody with low test. ZMA and DMA too. I agree with Rhino- get these three supps they should make you feel a whole lot better. Also get some Vit B12 and Vit B-Complex shots (not tablets). Get a good multivit as well- very important for someone with a hectic lifestyle like yours. Vitamin C and D very good for cortisol. Do not for the love of Zuma go on steroids now you are gonna fuck up your HPTA axis permanently!!

End of the day the root cause of your high cortisol is the lack of sleep no doubt it. You are going to have to sort this out dude. That, or you might have to be on meds for the rest of your life. Life is too short to be unhappy bud! Money is just a man made concept.

Thank you so much, I really appreciate this. I also believe as you mentioned, that I have a Cortisol problem. From my own research, I understand that long term stress is bad, which causes high cortisol levels, also over a long term, and that just screws up the whole body. My own research also shows that high cortisol kills the good bacteria in the stomach and gut, which I also have a problem with.

High cortisol levels also kills gains so going on a cycle is not the answer bud.

I am taking Maxi B at the moment, which is a tablet form. And I take a double dose (2 tablets) instead of the prescribed 1 tablet. But I will follow your suggestion and go for the injections instead.

The injections have a bioavailability of +-98%. This means if you inject 100kg, through the processes of the body to extract the substance you will get out 98kg. On the other side the bioavailability of pill form Vit B is 1%. So 99% of what you ingest is lost.

I also take a Multi Vit daily. I take the Bioharmony range (Patrick Holford ?). I really like his view on vitamins and diets. His doses and combinations of vitamins are different from the general vitamins out there.

Also because of Patrick Holford, I take Cal-C-Vita. The reason being, Cal-C-Vit has 1000mg of vit C per tablet. Holford believes that anything less than that is just a waste of money, and does not work.
And I don't know why, but on Cal-C-Vita I actually feel the difference (boost) after taking it. I just have to use it in moderation, as it irritates my stomach lining.

Ground breaking stuff by Mr Holford!! :woohoo: haha Joke bro but for real Cal-C-Vita is okay. Someone in your situation needs 2-3g Vit C per day. More if you can tolerate it.

I have also just asked my doctor if we can have my vit D tested, so I have the form with me and now just need to go to a lab to get the blood sample taken.

It´s an expensive test hey so prepare yourself mentally.

Your reply makes a lot of sense to me, so thank you very much, I really appreciate it. I am at breaking point at the moment, and desperate for anything that can make me feel better.

Chin up dude! You have the support of the whole forum no matter what happens.

I will get the ZMA and DMA asap, tomorrow even if I can. And this weekend I will go for that blood sample so we can see what my vit D level is at.

Buy them from www.bssa.biz The site is run by a member of this forum and the dude is a champion. His supps are brilliant!

At least I have a plan of action now. I still have many questions, I am just afraid to ask them. I see this forum has very strict rules, and there are very basic questions that I still need answered.

We have strict rules about asking for sources etc. but regarding questions fire away. You need not fear asking.

Thank you.

Thank you so much. This means more to me than you know.

Pyroclasm wrote: Do not for the love of Zuma go on steroids now you are gonna fuck up your HPTA axis permanently!!

Please may I ask what my HPTA axis is ?

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